LL-L "Pronomina" 2007.03.19 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L - 19 March 2007 - Volume 01

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From: Jonny Meibohm <altkehdinger at freenet.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language maintenance" 2007.03.18 (02) [E]

Beste Reineke,

Du schreyvst:

I consider what's been happening to the once newly introduced polite second
person pronoun part and parcel of this.  In the 19th century it was Jy ( Ji),
thus identical with the second person plural.  Then, under German influence,
Sey (Se) was introduced, based on the third person plural ... except ...
it's objective form ain't "right":

German:
they: nominative sie, dative ihnen, accusative sie
you (polite): nominative Sie, dative Ihnen, accusative S ie

It's consistent, as you can see.  But now ...

Common Low Saxon:
they: nominative sey, dative jem ~ j üm, accusative  jem ~ j üm
you (polite): nominative Sey, dative Sey, accusative Sey

Yeah- another good example what can happen if a language is getting watered.

But- this 'Sey' is already fading, perhaps as a result of English, Dutch and
Scandinavian influence on Standard German. People less and less use the
'polite' *Sie* in private talk, which also could be caused by a decrease of
social differences. This slightly seems to vary between Northern and
Southern Germany as well as between urban and rural regions.
In LS you even won't find  it any longer among young people beneath the age
of let's say 40. If you don't want to use a simple 'Du' ('you') you will
first take the old plural 'Jii' in LS and also 'Ihr' in Standard German.
It's really very common in Northern Germany.

BTW: in our region up until the sixties of the twentieth century there still
was LS 'Hey' (E: 'he', G: 'Er') the normal kind of addressing a man of lower
social rank: "Hett *Hey* de Ossen all fou'ert?" E: "Did *he*  already feed
the cattle?" G: "Hat *er* das Vieh schon gefüttert?". The way back, from
lower to higher rank, went: "Joo, *Buer*, hebb ick all! Kannst' Du doch woll
sülbst seyhn, wat se satt sünd!" E: "Of course, boss, I have! Don't you see
that they are satisfied?", G: "Ja, Bauer/Chef, habe ich schon! Siehst
*Du*nicht, dass sie satt sind?".
But this (first) form is strongly aspected disreputable and cannot be used
today; too many of the older people still connect it with bad and poor times
for the working class.

Allerbest

Johnny Meibohm

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Pronomina

Jonny:

> But this (first) form is strongly aspected disreputable and cannot be used
today;
> too many of the older people still connect it with bad and poor times for
the working class.

And I would say, "Good riddance!"  Or would you think of this as a part of
"watering down" as well?

After all, this seems like a great example of language changing with the
times and with social changes that come with them.

Addressing a working man with "he" instead of "you" and having him address
you with "they" instead of "you" seems rather out of place these days, and
for good reason.  Wouldn't you say?

All these things used to apply in German too, and I don't hear anyone
bemoaning the loss.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron
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