LL-L "Language maintenances" 2007.05.02 (06) [D/E]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  02 May 2007 - Volume 06

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From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language maintenance" 2007.05.02 (04) [E/LS]

Wet iemand misschien toevallig oe da ge umlauttekens en dergelijke kunt late
weergeve? Ik krijg namelijk altijd alles door als bijv.
"Nu steiht de NDR ok mit Johnny Meier in Seattle in Kontakt. De Vereen hett
düt Johr jo 100jähriges Bestohn. Dorför wöllt de Lüüd vun den NDR
röberflegen un dat opteken."

Anyone knows how I get rid of these weird symbols replacing umlaut and other
diacriticals?

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From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language maintenance" 2007.05.02 (04) [E/LS]

Also, I am under the impression that most Sorbs have simply accepted the
fact that their languages are strongly German-influenced, and they are
moving on from there instead of moaning and groaning about declining
standards while the languages fade into oblivion in the meantime.
<<<

That's a very interesting thought. Here one of the reasons for not using
dialect among younger people is among others the feeling that we can't speak
it correctly anymore. Even most of my friends that think the dialect should
be spoken again, are pessimistic because eventhough their parents speak it
to them, they are not used to speaking it and feel that their Antw. is not
like 'it should be'. That their 'Dutch' is not like it should be either is
of course no point to anyone, as noone is capable of speaking Dutch. But
you'll often get a remark when they hear you try to speak dialect, but hear
that some sounds are wrong, or with Dutch substrate words. (and as said will
noone say anything when they hear dialect substrate in your Dutch).
I think we should just accept that we can't speak like our grandparents
anymore but that's a big step.
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From: "Bryan E. Schulz" <bryans at lodging1.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language maintenance" 2007.05.02 (04) [E/LS]

 Ron,

"Also, I am under the impression that most Sorbs have simply accepted the
fact that their languages are strongly German-influenced, and they are
moving on from there instead of moaning and groaning about declining
standards while the languages fade into oblivion in the meantime"

Thank you for the observations and the theory.  You've answered the 'what'
and 'how' of the question but the 'why' remains elusive.  The English
language is NOT an easy language to learn and confusing to the new learner
yet it is a very widespread language.  The use of German(generic) is
declining in the world.  French is struggling.  My theory remains that the
language of commerce in a geographic  area has the upper-hand.  Assuming
this is true, I see little reason to believe that any minority language has
much of a chance of surviving the assult of the inter-net.  On the other
hand.... :-)),  the internet may be the ONLY chance of any minority language
to survive simply by the effect of operations such as this discussion
group started to preserve a language.  Perhaps the greatest reason many of
these Germanic languages are fading into oblivion is that the population of
the speakers is quite rapidly declining.  The north European  population
have a birth rate that is below what is needed to sustain an ethnic base.
Perhaps it is simply in the numbers!  It is totally concievable to see a
future Europe without any native characteristics.  The continent will be
entirely repopulated by other ethnic groups with foriegn languages.   Cest'
 la vi !!

Bryan E. Schulz

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language maintenance

Diederik, we send everything out in Unicode (UTF-8) encoding, so you need to
switch your view mode to that.

Within the current discussion I once again remind everyone of the case of
English, specifically the transition from Old English to Middle English.
Under Norman rule, everyone who wanted to be someone used French as much as
possible, and many ethnic English people switched to French as their first
language.  English was becoming a minority language, certainly had become a
low-prestige language that had a hard time surviving in cities.  After the
Norman era it was a relatively small group of people (interestingly led by
Cornishmen) that inspired people to take up English again and to help the
language regain national status.  While there were still archaic dialects in
the countryside, the varieties of English used in the cities had become very
much influenced by French, and the grammar was a far cry from that of Old
English.  In turn those more powerful French-influenced English dialects
influenced the country dialects.  Had people wasted time with the "purity"
thing and all that bickering, English may not have survived in the long run.

Then there is Norway.  In the cities, people used what was essentially
Danish on Norwegian substrates after centuries of Danish rule. The more
Danish you spoke and wrote the more prestigeous it was. Following Norwegian
independence there was the Nynorsk movement that sought to resurrect "true"
Norwegian on the basis of country dialects.  This developed into Norway's
second language, and its influences led to a more Norwegian character in
Dano-Norwegian (Bokmål).  Obviously, neither of the two Norwegian languages
is "pure;" both are essentially compromises.  After all, centuries of Danish
rule and influences could not be wiped away just like that, just like the
effects of the Norman Conquest of England could not be wiped away.
And why should
they?  They are parts of history, don't make the people and their languages
and cultures "worse," just different.

And there's Spain. During centuries of Arabic ("Moorish") rule, most
Christians and Jews learned Arabic and used it besides their home community
languages.  In fact, Arabic proficiency became very prestigeous in all
communities, and some of the most acclaimed Arabic language works of the
time were written by Christians and Jews, not just prose but also poetry
acclaimed throughout the Arabic-speaking world.  In both Spain and Portugal,
the local Romance languages developed new Arabized "Mozarabic" dialects
(usually written with the Arabic script) as well as new poetic styles
specific to these dialects.  After the end of the lengthy era of Arabic
rule, a harsh wind blew  through the land as Christianity was forced on
everyone and there were attempts at "purifying" the land.  However, numerous
Arabic loanwords remained, as did many of the most magnificent "Moorish"
artifacts, and much of today's music of Spain would not be the same without
their Arabic-derived elements. Castilian and Andalusian in particular had
become Arabized.  So what?  They moved on from there.

When I talk about "preserving" a language I mean maintaining it, keeping it
alive for as long as possible.*  However, many people mean by it "preserving
it as it is."  In my opinion that is a pipe dream and amounts to wanting to
soak it in formaldehyde and display it in a museum's glass case.  How can
you stop any language or culture from developing, even in isolation?
Languages have always developed by means of internal shifts in combination
with foreign influences (yes, even Icelandic).  The quest for purity, which
still haunts especially Continental Europe, has led to more bad than good
and in the case of languages constitutes the greatest threat besides
external suppression.  In fact, I consider it a form of suppression in that
it seeks to hinder progress, thus adversely affects language maintenance (or
loyalty) and thereby facilitates extinction.

No, I am not talking about an out-and-out laissez-faire approach here. In
the long run it is the community of speakers that will decide the direction
of development, but to begin with this requires sufficient tolerance to
permit experimentation to explore the possibilities.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

* P.S.: Bryan, I don't necessarily mean "preserving for all times."
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