LL-L "Idiomatica" 2007.10.02 (01) [D/E]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  02 October 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
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From: "heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk" <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2007.10.01 (10) [E]

Reinhard wrote:
The way I see it, in American English a team or a similar body of people is
a singular unit, while in non-American English the members are the focus.
Similarly non-American "they" vs American "it" for nouns like "team" or
"government."

American English rarely uses "all the" in case of singulars, and then
perhaps only because of archaic idiomatic expressions. For example, you can
say "for all the world to see," but "for the whole world to see" sounds
right too.

In the original Literacy Document introduced into English education some
years ago now, the glossary ( to explain terms to the teachers who
themselves knew no grammar!) was very explicit that all collectives were
singular: the team is... the government is ...... etc

In the revision that came out a few years later, attitudes had softened and
both singular and plural were deemed correct/ possible/ acceptable.

I have to say I find the power of using one or the other depending on the
focus very powerful, depending on the unity of the collective being used.

The government has decided .............. (unanimous)

The government have decided ........ ( some of them at least ... probably a
majority or at least the voices that count!)

The team is playing well .   The team were all over the place.

But the one that gets me ( apologies if I have ranted about this before!) is
the use of a singular verb with 'none'.

What do Lowlanders 'see' in their mind's eye when they hear " None of the
men ... wearing hats ( or a hat). Do you see one man without a hat or
several men without hats?

'None of the men were wearing hats/ a hat' seems much more logical visually
speaking.

What does BSL do, Sandy, to express the same idea?

Heather [Randall]

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From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2007.10.01 (10) [E]

Beste Ron én oal de Laiglanders,
About "all the", "whole the" etc.
Enkele verschillen tussen (West)- Vlaams en Nederlands:

Hail de wêreld = de gehele wereld.
Hail jen huus = je gehele huis.
Oal de mênsjhn = alle mensen.
Oal de vinters én wuuvers =alle mannen en vrouwen.
Oal da ja refuzairt zie je kwiet = alles wat je weigert, zie je je
ontglippen, ben je kwijt.
Oal da je nie en waild hoorn, moe je dooft voorn zien = voor alles wat je
niet wil horen, moet je doof zijn (met een dubbele ontkenning).
J' en wit mor holf de woarhéjd = je weet maar (je kent maar) de halve
waarheid (met een ontkenning).
En hé je mo twi joengers? Nin 'k!  Heb je slechts twee kinderen? Ja! (door
de ontkenning is het antwoord in West-Vlaanderen "neen" waar het in de
andere provincies "ja" is! Vroeger heb ik al eens bericht dat "ja" en "neen"
in het West-Vlaams (en aangrenzend Oost-Vlaams) verbogen worden:
Jaa'k, joa je, joanhen, joas, nin'k, naime, naije, nains ...(ja ik, ja jij,
ja hij, ja zij ... neenb ik, neen wij, neen jullie, neen zij).
Go junder komm? Naime! Zullen jullie komen? Neen (wij).

About "team", "government".
Wij zeggen:
't is doar e groep; ze doen et goed!    er is daar een groep; ZE doen het
goed (meervoud)
dad is 't niewe bestier, ze wérkn goed tegoare! dat is het nieuwe bestuur,
ZE werken goed samen (meervoud)
't is doar e bénde, 't zien kluntns! er is daar een bende, HET zijn
onnozelaars.
Toetnoasteki!
Roland Desnerck
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