LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.10.16 (01) [D/E/V]

Tue Oct 16 15:36:02 UTC 2007

L O W L A N D S - L  -  16 October 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
=========================================================================

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.10.15 (01) [E]

From: Jaap Liek <ir.j.liek at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.10.14 (05) [E]

In het Schouws (Noord-Zeeuws) noemen we dat insect een 'mogge'.

Ok... this friend spoke (speaks) the archaic dialect of Alblasserwaard/-dam
or some place about there, I guess the unrounding isn't the same
everywhere...

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder < ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.10.14 (05) [E]

What Diederick (ha, hoe gaat het met jou?) wrote is true for short u.
Written u in closed syllables stands for the short sound [Y] or rather [2]
in Standard Dutch, and for [U] in German. U in open syllables in Dutch is
[y], or [y:] before r. In close syllables, this is spelt uu. Examples:
rug [r2x] = back, bukken ["b2k@] = to bend; futen ["fyt@] = a kind of
water bird (plural), buren ["by:r@] = neighbors; huur [hy:r] = rent; fuut
[fyt] = a kind of water bird (singular). In German, long u = [u:],
sometimes spelt uh. I thought, Ben, you were not asking about Old Germanic
u, only how it is used in ortho and prono in Dutch and German nowadays, is
that true? Well, the state border is the pronunciation border as well in
this case: e.g. at the Dutch side of the border "natuur" = [na"ty:r], and
at the German side it's "Natur" = [na"thu:9].

Ah yes, only after sending the mail I remembered that /y/ actually is
pronounced /Y/ in the Netherlands and parts of Belgium... I keep stubbornly
using my /y/ (and long /y./ [or /Y./] with distinctive length for uu) even
when speaking more or less standard Dutch - the /Y/ is something most people
I know don't manage to get over their lips (similar with /i/ vs. /I/- for
being Hollandic, or even worse, West-Flemish (no offence - this however is
how the average Aantwaarpener sees it). And of course we don't want to sound
like people in de Vlönders with their strange /e/ instead of /i/ etc...;)
I myself keep talking after my sister/repeating what she says whenever she
produces those weird /Y/ and /I/'s. Stupid "dictie"classes.

Thus; although not officially, /y/ actually is used quite a lot in belgian
(sub)standard dutch.

But the actual pronounciation of /y/ or /Y/ doesn't affect the main point of
my above explanation anyway:)

----------

From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.10.15 (01) [E]

Hallo beste Laaglanders,
Jaap vermeldde het Noord-Zeeuws voor "mug" = mogge.
Het Oostends (Kust-West-Vlaams) voor "mug" = mezje (met dee stemhebbende
"zj" die je ook vindt in Jacques, George(s)...
In verband met "rug" = rik; rugvin = rikvinne.
De "u" voor een R klinkt in ons dialect als een "eu" = natuur: nateur; zuur:
zeur; muur: meur; schuur = sjheure; de verkleinwoorden zijn: naturtsje,
zurtsje, murtsje, sjhurtsje.
"Kleur" = kleur; maar het verkleinwoord is ook "klurtsje".
En dan "stuur" = stier; "duur" = diere; "vuur" = vier; viersjhip:
lichtschip. Het telwoord "vier" = viere (ain, twai, drieje, viere, vuuve,
zésse, zeevn, achte, neegn, tiene, élve (êve), twolve (twoave).
"Ruw" is noh het oudere: ruudig (vgl. Eng. rude); (vgl. vissoçoorten: ruwe
rog = ruuder; gladderog = glédder.
Tussen haakjes Ron: het West-Vlaams voor "kijken" = kiekn, kie.n (dus niet:
kieke).
Roger, oke ikke hén me genêrd mé joen biedrage over uuze Vlamsjhe
gesjhiedenisse (genêrn = vermeien, plezier beleven aan).
Toetnoasteki.
Roland uut Osténde, West-Vlaanderen.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com >
Subject: Language varieties

Hi, everyone,

About the vowels /u/ and /ü/:

In the Northern Low Saxon, the short /ü/ is [Y] as in Germany:

   - müg (Mügg, Müch) [mYC] = G. Mücke ["mYk_h@] 'mosquito' (cogn.
   "midge")
   - müggen (Müggen) [mYgN] = G. Mücke ["mYk_h at n] 'mosquitoes'

   - rüg (Rügg, Rüch) [rYC] = G. Rücken ["rYk_h at n] 'back' (cogn. "ridge")
   - rüggen (Rüggen) [rYgN] = G. Rücken ["rYk_h at n] 'backs'

   - brüg (Brügg, Rüch) [brYC] = G. Bücke ["brYk_h@] 'bridge'
   - brüggen (Brüggen) [brYgN] = G. Bücken ["brYk_h at n] 'bridges'

   - stük (Stück) [stYk] = G. Stück ["StYk] 'piece'

Umlauting in alternation:

   - kuss (Kuss) [k_hUs] = G. Kuss ["k_hUs] 'kiss'
   - küss (Küss) [k_hYs] = G. Küsse ["k_hYs@] 'kisses'
   - küssen ["k_hYsn] = G. küssen ["k_hYs at n] 'to kiss', 'kissing'

   - put ~ pot (Putt ~ Pott) [p_hUt] ~ [p_hOt] = (G. Topf [t_hOpf]) 'pot'
   - püt ~ pöt (Pütt~ Pött) [p_hYt] ~ [p_h9t] = (G. Töpfe ["t_h9pf@])
   'pots'
   - pütschern ["p_hYtS3n] (< pütjern) 'to potter' > 'to tinker', 'to
   busy oneself'

It also occurs where German does not have umlauting:

   - ünner ["?Yn3] = G. unter ["?Unt@`] 'under'

Short /i/ sometimes changed to /ü/, especially adjacent to labial
consonants:

   - büst [bYs(t)] = G. bist [bIst] '(thou) art'
   - bün [bYn] = G. bin [bIn] '(I) am'
   - vründ (Fründ) [frYn(t)] = D. vriend 'friend'

Long /üü/ [y:], on the other hand, tends to correspond to German eu or
äu[OI] and to Dutch
uu [y:] or, in umlauting, ui:

   - lüüd' (Lü(üd('))) [ly:.(d)] = G. Leute ["lOIt_h@] = D. lui 'people',
   'folk'
   - vuyr (Füür, Füer) = G. Feuer ["fOI at 3`] = D. vuur 'fire'
   - duyr (düür, düer) [dy:3] = G. teuer ["t_hOI at 3`] = D.
duur'expensive' (cogn. "dear")

   - bruud (Bruut) [bru:t] = G. Braut [braUt] = D. bruid 'bride'
   - bruyd' (Brü(üd('))) [bry:.(d)] = G. Bräute ["brOIt_h@] = D. bruiden'brides'

   - huus (Huus) [hu:s] = G. Haus [haUs] = D. huis 'house'
   - huys' (Hüüs(')) [hy:.z] = G. Häuser ["hOIz@] = D. huizen 'houses'

   - tuun (Tuun) [t_hu:n] = G. Zaun [ts_haUn] 'fence' = D. tuin 'garden'
   (cogn. "town")
   - tuyn (Tüün) [t_hy:.n] = G. Zäune ["ts_hOIn@] 'fences' = D. tuinen'gardens'

By the way, in Standard German aspiration applies to all syllable-initial
voiceless stop and affricate consonants (p, t, k, pf, z [ts]), which is
basically the same system as in Southern England English and in Danish, in
Low Saxon it applies only in word-initial syllables, which is basically the
same system as that of American English. As a result (so to speak),
intervocalic (thus unaspirated) /t/ becomes a flap sound, the same as the
"American flap" as in "better" (LS beter) and "butter" (LS butter ~ botter).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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