LL-L "Language politics" 2007.10.23 (05) [E]

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L O W L A N D S - L  -  23 October 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
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From: Jaap Liek < ir.j.liek at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.10.23 (03) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com >
> Subject: Language politics
>
> Under "Phonology," Jaap reminded us that Zeelandic and West Flemish
> are very similar. What I have been observing about them has convinced
> me that the two constitute a single dialect group, one dialect
> continuum, at most two subgroups of the same dialect group, and that
> they would generally be seen that way were it not for the
> Netherlands-Belgium border between them. In past times, both of them
> tended to be called Vlaemsch, Zeelandsch Vlaemsch with special
> reference to the coast and to the islands of what is now the province
> of Zeeland.
>
> This then is similar to the case Low Saxon in which some people see
> and want to perpetuate a separation along the international border.
>
> Is it not also similar to the case of Scots in which some people in
> Ireland want to see Ulster Scots ( Ullands) officially separate from
> Scots of Scotland?
>
> Outside the Lowlands area I can think of a couple or so similar cases.
>
> Were it not for the international border and Sweden's refusal to
> recognize any Scandinavian minority language within its borders,
> Scanian of Southern Sweden and Danish would probably be considered one
> language now. As in the case of Low Saxon, separatists point toward
> differences as a result of separation to justify the separation.
>
> In the absence of the international border, Galician of northwestern
> Spain and Portuguese of Portugal would probably be considered one
> language, as linguists do. Again, there is a dialect continuum, though
> existing under Spanish power has resulted in Castilian influences on
> Galician.
>
> Any other such cases?
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

Yes, the language of Catalunya, was/is spoken between Perpignan(France)
and the river Ebro(Spain)
-- 
Jaap Liek <ir.j.liek at gmail.com >

----------

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Thanks, Jaap.

I didn't know they were considered different languages. I know that Catalan
is used in Catalonia ( Catalunya), Valencia (País Valencià) and the Balearic
Islands (Illes Balears), Murcia ( Múrcia) and the Aragon Fringe (Franja
d'Aragó) of Spain, in the Eastern Pyrenees (Pirineus Orientals) of France
and, as the the national language, in Andorra. But I thought that within
that region it was considered one language, lately called
"Catalan-Valencian-Balear." I was only aware of some people claiming that
the Catalan of Alghero ( l'Alguer) in Sardinia is a separate language.

Here's another case in Europe. While it was a part of the Soviet Union, the
Moldavian Republic promoted its main language as "Moldavian" (Молдовеняскэ).
Post-Soviet Moldova appears to be unsure if the language of the land is
"Moldovan" ( Moldovenească) or "Romanian" (Română). There are contradictions
here in documents and in what local politicians say. I suppose it depends on
if you're a unificationist or a separatist. So lately you often find it
written as "Romanian (Moldovan)" ( Română (Moldovenească)). They are clearly
one language, though the Moldovan standard is dialectically somewhat
differently based and has bunches of Russian loans.

Outside Europe there is "Persian" as a general term, hacked up into Farsi of
Iran, Dari of Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Tajik of Tajikistan and Uzbekistan.
Again, they are basically one language with somewhat different bases and
influences. I have attended meetings at which people from Iran, Afghanistan,
Tajikistan and (partly Tajik-speaking) Uzbekistan attended and discussed in
their respective standard varieties without any difficulties at all. While
Afghani Persians are somewhat undecided and Iran tends to refer to all
varieties as Farsi, Tajikistan has recently been shutting itself off from
the rest, and references to Farsi or Persian within a Tajik context are not
generally considered quite kosher. So, apparently for the sake of
strengthening national identity, they decided not to seize the post-Soviet
chance of linguistic and cultural unification.

The above would be a bit like Austria deciding that its main language was
not German but, say, "Austrian" (Östareichisch) or "Austro-Bavarian"
(Östareichisch-Boarisch),
or Northern Belgium declaring that its official language was
"Brabanto-Flemish" (*Braobans-Vlams).

Back to Western Flanders and Zeeland ... "Zeelandic-Flemish" ( Zeeuws-Vlaams)
is considered a it to denote specifically the dialects of Zeeland
(Netherlands) that they consider Flemish. The latter camp does concede,
thus, that the linguistic divide does not perfectly match the political
divide.

The separatist camp in Northern Germany, however, regards the political
border as perfectly coinciding with the linguistic divide between "Platt" in
the east and "Nedersaksisch" in the west (and most don't dare use German
"Niedersächsisch" because of the name of the neighboring German state).
Dutch vs German influences is considered justification enough. It helps to
avoid issues of looking at the language within an international context, as
a language that is neither Dutch nor German, and it thus avoids issues of
spelling and coordination. And the fact that the language descended from Old
Saxon remains pretty much a piece of guarded or irrelevant esoterica with
regard to the general population in Northern Germany. "It's too confusing
for the average person," is what people ell me, and "Those Dutch people are
still too touchy to handle." It's always someone else's fault, and "Don't
let those foreigners come here and mess around in our backyard!" is often
implied. Europe's political boundaries may be invisible now, but they aren't
gone by any means, nor are the boundaries of the mind.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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