LL-L "Romance connections" 2008.04.07 (02) [D/E]

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L O W L A N D S - L - 07 April 2008 - Volume 02
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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Romance connections" 2008.04.06 (05) [D/E]

> From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
> Subject: LL-L "Events" 2008.04.06 (02) [E]
> Beste Roger,
> There must be more ways to recognize Belgians than their pronunciation of
W, I hope, because there are very few words in French with that consonant.
> The funny thing here is that the Dutch Dutch (from the
Netherlands, "Holland") pronounce the W in words like Wallonië differently
than the Belgian Dutch ("Northerners"), although not with V as the French
French, but neither with the English and Belgian bilabial W. Something in
between those.
> But, French spoken by Flemish and Dutch by Walloons/Brusselers must have
some more interesting features. Can you or someone else tell us more about
this?

Belgian French is generally much closer to standard French,
than  Belgian Dutch is to Standard Dutch.
People from the Liège area have a special singing rithm (*cf. minister
Dardenne, drunk on YouTube *http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=0dguKikz7Ec), that
cought me somehow, since I'm often asked whether I come from Liège. Belgian
people often put their accents within a phrase differently from French
people.
Some (Central and Northern) French people have a nazalization with much
reverberance, which Belgians often do not have that strong.

Let me just tell about my own experience.
My first language was West-Limburgish (Lonerlands from Vliermaal, but just
East of the Panninger line: sch becoming sj).
Since I did part of my primary school in Tongeen, my second language was
Tongerlands-Limburgish, with a sound that shared some features with
East-Walloon from Liège
My third language was (Belgian) Dutch, called "opte letter" or "goed
Vlaams";
My fourth language was French (at school from the age of 10 on)
At that time French was still a current language in the decent shops of the
main streets of Hasselt and Tongeren (fifties).
When we got TV, it was easier for us to follow programs at the ARD / ZDF
than understanding Rudi Carell, when he still worked for the Dutch TV.
So far about the background.

I did one of my engineering years at Liège university. In their program they
had one mandatory hour of a foreign language. Foreigners could choose
French, and I was allowed to take French pronounciation.
My teachers name was Munot, the assistant of Professor Warnant, the author
of the "Dictionnaire de la Prononciation française" (in 2 vol).

Our manual was "Fouché, Traité de la Prononciation française", 1959,
Klincksieck, Paris, lxiii + 529 pp.
I used it for exercising *e-muet patterns*
e.g. one of many patterns 0*11*0*11*0*1*
                            parc' qu*e* j*e* n' l*e* r*e*d'v*e*nais pas...
an other 0*1*0*1*0*1*0*11*
                           et d' c*e* qu' j*e* n' t*e* l' r*e*pr*e*nais pas
' representing skipped e-muets when pronouncing
The standard was based on the language of the "Parisiens cultivés" of the "*I
dont remember which*" arrondissement of Paris.

We were with 3 (a Spanish lady, a Mexican guy and myself) for 30 evening
lessons, so it was almost private teaching.
I had particurely to cultivate my "s". My lips were rounded and had too much
protuberance, and I produced too much air; I had to learn to pronounce it
(before a mirror) with a complete flat line at lip splits and hold my tongue
down. Therefore I got a flat wood, similar to the one one finds in ice cream
but a bit broader. It toke me several weeks before I got an acceptable
result.

This was just my personal experience.
As to my observation people from the Netherlands have particularily problems
with the *nasalization of vowels*.

In his dictionary Warnant lists some difficulties:
for speakers of Dutch
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/nl.jpg
for speakers of English
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/uk.jpg
for speakers of German
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/ger.jpg

Regards,
Roger

----------

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Romance connections" 2008.04.06 (05) [D/E]

>>From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
>>Subject: LL-L "Events" 2008.04.05 (08) [D/E]
>>
>>Beste Ron, Roger, Luc en alle anderen,
>>Het Picardisch is een romaanse taal, geen dialect! Het werd in de
middeleeuwen ook in teksten gebruikt, o.m. vaak door de kroniekschrijver
>>Comines. Het wordt (werd) gesproken in een vrij ruim gebied buiten het
Picardië dat die naam sinds de 15de eeuw verdiende. Er waren in dat
>>gebied, de grens tussen Vlaanderen, Normandië en Ile de France, vele
burchten (zoals te Lucheux), vele huurlingen; hun wapen de piek",
>>vandaar Picard en Picardie. In een belangrijk deel van Artesië (Artois) en
in het westelijke deel van Belgisch Henegouwen (en ook Frans >>Henegouwen)
wordt (werd) deze taal gesproken. Er zijn nog enkele schrijvers die deze
taal gebruiken. Ik bezit het boekje "Les Vints d'
>>Amont" met teksten van vele schrijvers in het Picardisch. Mag niet verward
worden met Waals.
>>Deze taal kent een ouder stadium dan het Frans: de oude "c" is niet "ch"
geworden, de oude "g" is niet "j" geworden, de "eau" is niet o
>>geworden.
>>Ik heb verschillende spellingen gevonden. Ik schrijf hieronder zoals ik de
taal gehoord heb, voornamelijk in de streek van Amiens, tussen
>>Authie en Somme, en meestal te Naours, gekend voor zijn ondergronds
vluchtdorp, het grootste van Frankrijk. Daar had ik een kameraad die
>>de taal nog helemaal beheerste, spijtig genoeg is hij een twintig jaar
geleden overleden.


De traditionele Vlaamse namen van de vermelde plaatsen:
l'Authie: de Otie
la Somme: de Zomme/de Zoom
Valencienne: Valencijn/Valensijn
(volgens http://www.roepstem.net/vlaanderen.html)

Weet iemand of de andere namen ook een Vlaams equivalent hebben?
Amont Amiens
Naours

Diederik
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