LL-L "Language learning" 2008.04.20 (08) [E]

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

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L O W L A N D S - L  - 20 April 2008 - Volume 08
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2008.04.20 (02) [E]

Well, we'll just guess you had a piece of pie in your keyboard so you
couldn't finish the word German...ic ;-)
Ingmar
Btw Saxon and Frisian are usually called West Germanic languages, together
with Dutch, English and German, whereas Danish, Norwegian, Swedish,
Icelandic and Faroese form the North Germanic language group

From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2008.04.19 (08) [E]

Oh dear! I'm not going to live that one down, am I!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

a  most perturbed Reinhard/Ron wrote:

I beg your pardon?  because I had written
> But in fact English has three as has its parent language German

Of course what I meant was .." its parent Germanic language of  Saxon and
other allied north Germanic languages inc Frisian "

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2008.04.19 (08) [E]

> From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2008.04.19 (01) [E]

> I seem to remember we 'argued' this before on the forum. I hold to the
> school of thought that believes that if there is traceable historical
> descent, then there is reason to use something. If a lack of
> understanding is the reason for 'misapplying' a word or form, then
> that is sheer laziness. And who would want the future developement of
> their language to be based on laziness?

I wouldn't call that a school of thought, exactly!

So what do you mean by "traceable historical descent"? Isn't brought >
bought traceable? If it persists then in the future it will also have
the necessary historical descent? How old does it have to be before your
"school of thought" finds it venerable enough to be right rather than
wrong?

People use language to communicate, not to show their scholarship. So
what's the motivation for saying "swum" if you already use the "swim
swam swam" forms? Or changing to "brought" if "bought" works fine? It's
not laziness, it's just common sense to say "it ain't broke, I ain't
fixing it".

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2008.04.19 (01) [E]

> > From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Language learning
> >

Sorry about the editing sin. I had meant to answer the following but
forgot it was there!

> > I see a very similar situation in computer skills learning, and
> > especially in anything approaching computer programming (which
> > involves a type of language proficiency also). Confident and
> > experienced people try to get the large picture first, acquire key
> > rules and then have a relatively easy time figuring out the system
> and
> > thus the details. Timid people try to learn details first, and most
> of
> > them drown in the flood of them, perhaps never to get to a point at
> > which they can see the large picture.

Suppose you were learning a human language, how would you apply this
principle? I have to say that the languages I've been most successful in
gaining a broad knowledge of are those for which I've spent a lot of
time just learning word lists and developing my vocabulary. While you
need grammar and other stuff as well, I've always found that you can't
do anything unless you know a lot of words.

I know this is against accepted wisdom, but I've tried all sorts of
approaches and concentrating on a strong vocabulary is what seems to
work best for me.

I wouldn't ask this question except we know you're a phenomenal
linguist, Ron, and any pearls that might fall by the wayside will be
scooped up and... well... examined to see if they make any sense!  :)

I've also used a large number of computer languages and my approach is
usually just to sit down in front of the machine and get on with it!

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language learning

Sandy,

There ain't no magic, nothing quite a few other people on this list can't
tell you also.

I wasn't talking about learning vocabulary, although it, too, can be
facilitated by looking for common morphemes in order to discover patterns,
also looking for connections in related language varieties. I was talking
about "grammar," in which I include phonology. I look for patterns in
recurrences and I gradually define the patterns by discovering their
limitations by realizing their non-application. This is pretty much what a
young child does in learning his or her native language, which is where you
get "logical errors" (e.g. *"womans").

What I'm saying here is that it is far more efficient to discern widely
applicable rule patterns and their extent than to learn innumerable,
seemingly unconnected bits of information practically in isolation. Learning
just a few seeming exceptions is much easier that learning practically each
new bit of information as a sort of "exception."

The same goes for etymology. You do have to familiarize yourself with the
basics of phonology to learn about sound production features or categories,
and then to learn what sorts of sound shifts are possible and likely. For
instance, you might learn that a shift from /t/ to /k/ is (much to some
people's surprise) possible but a shift from, say, /t/ to /m/ is highly
unlikely, and this is indicative of factual and likely patterns within a
group of language varieties or in cases of borrowing between unrelated
varieties

This is really not such a big deal with some basic knowledge, experience and
confidence. Much of it is or soon becomes virtually intuitive, much as it is
to a young child.

In seeking some grounding in etymology -- which is the area of diachronic or
historical phonology in conjunction with some knowledge or "sense" for
semantics (i.e. possible and likely shifts in meaning) -- I highly recommend
doing exercises with certain language families or groups, even if you are
not particularly interested in them. In particular, I recommend picking
groups for which no ancient or even pretty old records exist, such as
Polynesian, Athabaskan or Bantu, which have numerous members strewn over a
large area. Polynesian is particularly good for a start because the phoneme
inventory is fairly small and simple, and the language varieties have been
scattered all across water on islands for hundreds of years. By comparing
basic words in as many as possible varieties you see patterns and distances
of relationships emerge, and you might get to discover a migration time-line
and possibly snippets of a proto language, the hypothetical common ancestor.
It is more complex where overland migration is involved and the likelihood
of "interference" and substrata is thus much greater. It becomes yet more
complex when you deal with ancient written records that may or may not
represent actual spoken language of a certain era. You have to be mindful of
the possibility of a variety being partly artificial, idealized, perhaps
patterned after a high-prestige language (such as Latin in Europe).

What does etymology have to do with language learning? Well, etymological
skills and awareness are very helpful in learning and recognizing foreign
vocabulary. (I'm elegantly returning to your focus, aren't I?) Just by
starting with some rudimentary foreign language material you are able to
connect words with their cognates in related language varieties with which
you are better acquainted. Most of us do this to some extent or other,
virtually intuitively, mostly subconsciously. However, having actual
etymological research skills, you search quite consciously and discern
connections and patterns much faster. This is not to say that you won't make
any mistakes, for especially idiom and style have to be learned the
old-fashioned way: by exposure. Honing your rule detection skills does mean,
however, that you will see the big picture and thus acquire a workable
foundation much sooner.

Sandy, judging by your participation in discussions here, I feel rather
confident in assuming that you already know most of these things on some
level or other, that your levels of intelligence and keenness of observation
allow you to to pick up many facts and patterns without being fully aware of
the process. This can only be topped by becoming fully aware of them and
directing them deliberately. And, by the way, you don't need to be able to
hear to study phonology (or even phonetics) since we are talking about
scientifically measurable and visually describable values and patterns.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

•

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