LL-L "Orthography" 2008.02.05 (08) [E]

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.02.05 (02) [E]

Caro Senhor
Originally, Dutch "oe" must have sounded as a long o [o:] just as in older
West Germanic, and the -e was a sign for its length. This pronunciation
can still be heard in a few Dutch dialects. Later "oe" was pronounced as a
long [u:] sound, this is still quite common in e.g. the Belgium Brabant
pronunciation and also in Kleverlands (South Gelderland, North Limburg,
North East Noord-Brabant). Later on it was shortened to [u] in Standard
Dutch, except before -r where it's still long.
Most dialects too have an [u], some [u:], see above. There are (were) also
dialects with [u]/[u:] in most positions, but [o:],[ou],[Ou] before velar
consonants: goed, doen  vs  vroug, bouk etc. This is especially the case
in so-called Ingvaeonic or coastal dialects.

For the other seperated but related languages in the Netherlands:

Low Saxon has generally
[u:] in Salland, Veluwe, Stellingwerven, South Drenthe
[o:] in Achterhoek, Middle Drenthe and Twente (except Vriezeveen)
[Ou]/[Au] in Groningen, North Drenthe, Vriezeveen (Twente)

Netherlands Limburgs has generally [o:], but [Ou] in a few towns

For the Dutch speaking part of Belgium, I'm not so sure

Chau, Ingmar

Ivison dos Passos Martins wrote:
How was the Modern Dutch oe /u/ ponounced in Middle Age times?
I've just read that is spelled in this way because it was once a diphthong
as in Old German UO.
What about the dialects of Dutch? Is the word "boek" written and read as
in Dutch?

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From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.02.05 (06) [E]

>>I find Henno's hypothesis of [uo] in Middle Dutch very plausible
considering that the shift was from Old Dutch [uo] to Modern Dutch [u:].
>>
>>Regards,
>>Reinhard/Ron

This (i.e. the actual pronunciation being [u.@]) can actually be "proven"
(proved?) quite easily. Its front-vowel antagonist /ie/ (from Pgmc. /e:/ or
/eu/) *has *had to be pronounced [i.@], since the old Germanic /i:/ didn't
fall together with this sound and didn't get diphthongised until much later.
And for systemical regularity it's quite safe to assume its counterpart /oe/
then wasn't a simple long vowel yet either.
The opposition as between /ie/ and /ij/ doesn't have a parallell with /oe/
though, as Pgmc. /u:/ had already become /y:/. But it is quite unprobable
that /uo/ shifted to /u:/ if /ie/ didn't yet.

Greetz from Bjørgvin,
Diederik

PS. in Antwerp, /oe/ got usually shortened before /k/, so unlike for example
/oefenen/ or /roepen/ with a long vowel, /boek/ and /koek/ have a short
vowel here (even in semi-standard people usually retain this pronunciation
difference).
And where Frisian has /buk/ vs. /bu:k/ (beech tree), Antw. has umlauted
/buuk/ [bY.k], not lowered as in Dutch /beuk/ [bö.k]; although by now it has
almost been replaced by the St. Dutch equivalent, a 1995 enquête only giving
having one elder person attesting the long /u:/ (which means the other old
one, the 2 middle generation and 2 youngsters only knowing the word /beuk/).


----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography"

Beste Henno,

You wrote:

It probably was pronounced like [u.@] in mnay dialects, so longer [u] sound
with weak sjwa.
This sound e.g. occurs still in West(erlauwer) Frisian (although this is a
different language)
(although not in this word, where we have [buk] like Dutch, and [bu:k]
meaning beech).

How confusing Dutch spelling can be (for non-Dutch); "buik" (belly) could be
written "boëk" [bo at k] in Brabantish, "bok" (buck) "boek" [buk] and "beuk"
(beech) "buuk" [by:k] (umlaut of u:).

This also means "book" (E) and "buck" (E) are pronounced the same in
Brabantish: [buk]. Which may not have been such a terrible problem, 'cause
back in the days when we still had bucks (animal ones ;-) ), people didn't
yet read books I guess. Goes to show, "lezen" (to read) only meant "to
pray":

Gojre gaa vö maa ne ki goe leezn in Scherpenheuvel?
(Are you going to say a prayer for me in Scherpenheuvel?)

The Scherpenheuvel basilica is a famous place in Eastern Brabant for
catholic pilgrims (Montaigu in French).

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx
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