LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.04 (09) [A/E]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  01 January 2008 - Volume 09
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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.04 (03) [E]

Beste Elllsie:

Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Wat van bv 'Sakelui' = 'business-people'?

(Kritzinger Labuschagne en Pienaar, Die Verklarende Afrikaanse Woordeboek:
van Schaik 1972.

*lui*, (s, mv), liede, mense:
en
*lui*, as postmorfeem gebruik vir die meervoudsvorm van *man* bv, *seelui*,
*timmerlui* ens.

Askies vir my jammerlike stilte die laaste tyd.

Die Uwe,
Mark

It fascinates me that Afrikaans does not seem to have a cognate of
the *Indo-European:
***leudh-* 'to go freely', 'to grow'** > *leudho *'people'.
Are A. lid / lede (member/s) perhaps related?

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.04 (03) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

By the way, for some strange reason the cognate word for "people" (Old
English *léode*, Old Northumbrian
*líoda*) seems to have disappeared from English and Scots also. In English,
it disappeared at the end of the Middle English period ( e.g., *Fra hys kyn
till ane wncouth lede*, Wintoun Chronicles, 1425). In Scots it held on to
the early modern stage (e.g., *For thai me hayt mar na Sotheroun leid*,
Henry Wallace, 1714).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

I guess we had (and retained) "folc" in various forms, and borrowed the
French "people" as a synonym.  Maybe "lede" just got redundant?  I don't
know if Norse had any "lede"-like word, but they did have "folk"; if English
settles on a Germanic word it is often an Old English one reinforced by
Norse.  For example we use "tree" rather than "beam" because ON and OE had a
version of the former.  Beam now only survives as a special meaning, and in
tree names like Hornbeam.

Paul Finlow-Bates

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From: Marcel Bas <roepstem at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.04 (03) [E]

Hi Elsie,

You wondered:

Hi all,

It fascinates me that Afrikaans does not seem to have a cognate of

the *Indo-European: ***leudh-* 'to go freely', 'to grow'** > *leudho *
'people'.

Are A. lid / lede (member/s) perhaps related?

Lid/lede is not related (this goes back to IE **elei *'to bend'). There are
some cognates of **leudh- *in Afrikaans, though.

 - *julle *'second person plural' < *je + lie(-den). *The shift from *luuden
* to *lieden* is considered Flemish. So Afrikaans 'julle' and Dutch 'jullie'
means 'you people'.

-  *hulle* 3rd person plural = *hun +lie(den*)*. *So Afrikaans 'hulle' and
dialectic Dutch 'hulle'* *means 'them people'.

- *luier* 'diaper' (but Afrikaans speakers usually refer to 'diapers' as
'doeke').  Some etymologists think that '*luier* ' derives from this same
root **leudh-*, particularly when it means 'to grow'. So the baby grows
inside the diaper.

Best regards,

Marcel.

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From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.04 (03) [E]

Lid/lede(n) is not related. I am not sure if it is related to English lid?
Or Norwegian led(d)...
Apart from lui, Dutch also knows (orig. Southern forms) with -ie-, in
standard language however generally 'lieden' is higher and lui is slightly
more vulgar.
I'm not sure if lieden/lui is still used over here, apart from the plural
pers. pronouns (wijlie, gijlie, zullie etc). In Holland (excuse me, the
Netherlands) 'lui' for 'mensen' seems to be quite popular though, at least
in more oral forms of the language. (or in diminutive luitjes).

Professions ending in -man take (officially) plurals in -lui or -lieden. 1
koopman, meerdere kooplieden (/kooplui), brandweerman, brandweerlieden/lui.
To me it doesn't sound strange saying "timmermannen" or "brandweermannen"
though. But you're not allowed to write it anyway:) [and usually the latter
are called "pompiers" [pOm'pI.jrs] in these districts anyway]

And I just noticed that apparently Dutch is the only Germanic/W.European
language that does not use the latin word "muscle" but "spier". Anyone knows
other Germanic languages that use a more "original" word?

Diederik

----------

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

By the way, this sg. *-man* -> pl. *-luyd'* system seems to be common to the
"Low German" group (Low Franconian and Low Saxon); e.g., Low Saxon *
timmerman* -> *timmerluyd'* (*Timmermann *-> *Timmerlüüd*') 'capenter(s)', *
varensman* -> *varensluyd'* (*Fahrensmann* -> *Fahrenslüüd'*) 'seafarer(s)',
*koupman* -> *koupluyd'* (*Koopmann* -> *Kooplüüd'*) 'merchant(s)'.

And then it's the common, albeit not only, plural marker in the following
cases: *man* -> *mans* ~ *mansluyd'* (*Mann* -> *Manns* ~ *Mannslüüd'*)
'man/men', *vrou* ~ *vru* -> *vroun* ~ *vruun* ~ *vrouns ~ vruuns *~ *
vrounslüüd'* ~ *vruunslüüd'* (*Fro ~ Fru -> Froon ~ Fruun ~ Froons ~ Fruuns
~ Frounslüüd' ~ Fruunslüüd'*) 'woman/women'. So one of the choices is like
English "menfolk" and "womenfolk" respectively.

How about Frisian and Limburgish, and is it native if it does exist there?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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