LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.05 (05) [E]

Sun Jan 6 00:51:43 UTC 2008

L O W L A N D S - L  -  05 January 2008 - Volume 05
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From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.05 (01) [E]

At 10:49 AM 05/01/2008 -0800, Paul wrote:

I guess we had (and retained) "folc" in various forms, and borrowed the
French "people" as a synonym.  Maybe "lede" just got redundant?  I don't
know if Norse had any "lede"-like word, but they did have "folk"; if English
settles on a Germanic word it is often an Old English one reinforced by
Norse.  For example we use "tree" rather than "beam" because ON and OE had a
version of the former.  Beam now only survives as a special meaning, and in
tree names like Hornbeam.

Or like NL *Boom*.

Ed Alexander

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From:Marcel Bas <marcelbas at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.05 (03) [E]

Hi everyone,

Kevin Caldwell asked:

>Based on the following and the discussion which has ensued, I'm now
wondering if the French >pronoun "lui" is also related to this root.

I don't think so. *lui* comes from a Vulgar Latin word **illui*, which is a
dative form of **illi *(he).
Both words are typical Latin personal pronouns, which can be found in French
*eux*, *leur* and *elle*, but also in *oui (< *hoc illi*) and the definite
article *le* (< *illum, illas *, etc.)

Etymologists do think that **leudh-* led to the Latin word *liber* 'free'.
So this would give French *libre*, etc.

Best regards,

Marcel.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

De Roepstem - Die Roepstem

http://roepstem.net

Nederland - België - Luxemburg - Suid-Afrika

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks for the contributions in the thread!

This ought to be a crossover to "Grammar" perhaps ...

As has been mentioned, Dutch *jullie* 'you' (plural), Afrikaans
*julle*'you' (plural), and Afrikaans
*hulle* 'they' incorporated by way of suffixing a noun for 'people' (*lied*,
*lui*).

This reminds us once again that the introduction of politeness -- which more
often than not is the result of "cultured" foreign influence -- is likely to
alters ("destroys") the symmetrical structure of native systems, especially
pronominal systems. What happened in Dutch and Afrikaans is also something
that has happened in English and Scots.  In Low Saxon it has happened under
Dutch influence on Netherlands soil, while in Germany it began later under
German influence, is still not happening in many dialects and is still
perceived as foreign (*geel* 'yellow' = German-style) by many speakers.

Traditional Modern Low Saxon | Old Saxon | Old English | Modern English:
Singular
   1. ik | ik | ic | I
   2. du | thū | þū (obj. þē) | (thou ~) you
   3. masc. hey | hē | hē | he
       fem. sey | hē | heo | she
       neut. it ~ et ~ dat | it | hit | it
Dual
   1. -- | wit | wit | --
   2. -- | git | git | --
Plural
   1. wy | wī | wē | we
   2. jy | gī | gē (obj. eouw) | you
   3. sey | sia | hie | they

In Modern English, the original objective case of the second person plural
form has become the general nominative second person pronoun. This is
because this plural form came to be used as a polite pronoun and eventually
made the familiar pronoun redundant. As a result, there is no longer a
distinction both between familiar and polite and between singular and
plural.

Old Low Franconian | Modern Dutch | Afrikaans
Singular
   1. ik | ik | ek
   2. thū | jij, gij | jy
   3. masc. hē | hij | hy
       fem. hē | zij | sy
       neut. hē | het |
Plural
   1. wī (obj. uns) | wij (obj. ons) | ons
   2. fam. gī | ju*llie* ~ gij | ju*lle*
       pol. gī | gij ~ u | u
   3. hē | zij | hu*lle*

In Dutch and Afrikaans, introduction of a polite level caused similar
shifts, and the word for "people", "folk" (*lied*, *lui*) came to mark the
familiar forms and was extended to the equivalent of "they".

What about *u*?

In Neerlandized Low Saxon, does *oe* ([u(:)]) for the second person singular
and plural come from the same source as Dutch *u*, or is there a link with
old *thū*?

In older Germanized Low Saxon, the second person plural pronoun became the
polite second person singular pronoun.

Older German | Older Germanized Low Saxon
Singular
   1. ich | ik
   2. pejorative masc. er | hey
       pejorative fem. sie | sey
       fam. du | du
       pol. Ihr | Jy
   3. masc. er | hey
       fem. sie | sey
       neut. es | it ~ et ~ dat
Plural
   1. wir | wy
   2. pejorative: sie | sey
       fam. ihr | jy
       pol. Ihr | Jy
   3. sie | sey

In today's Germanized Low Saxon, the third person plural pronoun serves as
the polite second person pronoun, as in German.

German | Germanized Low Saxon
Singular
   1. ich | ik
   2. fam. du | du
       pol. Sie | Sey
   3. masc. er | hey
       fem. sie | sey
       neut. es | it ~ et ~ dat
Plural
   1. wir | wy
   2. fam. ihr | jy
       pol. Sie | Sey
   3. sie | sey

Interestingly, the older plural pejorative ("talking down") pronoun is now
the polite one! For instance, in the 18th and earlier 19th centuries, a
landlord or nobleman might address several lower-class people with the
equivalent of "they" (e.g., "Have they (= you) accomplished today's
chores?"). If addressing one or more people nowadays, this would be polite!

The Dutch and Afrikaans suffixing of a word for "people" seems to be being
"reenacted" these days in American English, where the use of an older polite
form did away with the distinction between singular and plural, and the
plural is now being restored by the addition of "guys" to "you." If this
becomes formalized, English may end up with "you" for the singular and with
something like *"youguys" for the plural.

Similar processes can be observed in many of the world's languages: the
introduction of social distinction "upsets" the system, and the system has
to restore and reinvent itself. A typical case is that of the Turkic group
of Altaic where in the varieties of Islamicized Turkic communities Persian
influences did similar things, some of them leading to very complex
processes. This contrasts with the varieties of non-Islamic Turkic-speaking
communities, most of which live in Siberia.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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