LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.21 (01) [D/E]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  21 January 2008 - Volume 01
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From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.20 (06) [D]

Beste Jacqueline en Ron en alle anderen,

In verband met "tochtig" en "zucht"

"zucht" als ziekte vind je ook in "geelzucht", "hij is ziek en zuchtig"...
"tuchtig" betekent bij ons, d.w.z. in West-Vlaanderen, bronstig, namelijk
van koeien gezegd. Ook: brémstig, brad ...
vgl. Nederlands "tucht" (discipline) en ontucht ("seksuele
zedenverwildering")
"tuut", "tuute" en "tot" hebben vele betekenissen.
tuut: iets kleins; vb. kan men 's vrijdags zeggen:
nog e dag én e tuut
én de weke is uut!
tuute: ook het witte mutsje van de Oostendse klederdracht, meestal voluit
genoemd: "e kaketuute"
 een totsje= een kus; ook: e pieptsje, e smok; om te schijnlachen kan men
zeggen:
je god e smok up jen oogn kriegn
én e krabbel an je buuk!
e totte is ook: a. een gedroogde wijting; b. een kleine schelvis (een grote
schelvis is: e laber).
e tueter: een toeter;
e toeter: schommel; toetern: schommelen;
het West-Vlaams "sjhommeln" betekent dan weer: wat poetsen, wat reinigen,
het huis wat in orde brengen;
"tuute" en "tétte" doen meestal denken aan iets scherps; e tétte: a.
vrouwenborst; b. buil; 'k hén e tétte up mien hoofd; c. deuk bij botsing met
auto's; 'k hén doar e tétte héd.
Niet lang geleden las ik het L.S. voor Hollunder, Nederlands "vlier"; het
Oostends is: vliender; e vlienderspékke: een vlierborstbol.

Toetnoasteki,
Roland Desnerck

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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.20 (08) [E]

Ron/Reinard wrote "we can say that on the basis of שלא מזל *shelo **mazâl*
we should expect something like* *shlomazl* or **shlumazl*."

Can anyone confirm that Cockney / Londoners have borrowed this BUT without
the 'l' i.e. schmozzle'. and with the meaning "What a mess / cock-up!"

Reading yours and Mark's pieces this word sprang to mind - I haven't heard
it in years but my father used to use it a lot. I know memory cannot be
relied on the older one gets BUT I am certain I can recall it to mind
without an'l'.

Poor memory?

Bad ears?

Or did my dad get it 'wrong' all those years ago?

best wishes

Heather

who is enjoying the first snowdrops and listening to the blackbirds and
thrushes singing their hearts out

but who is wishing that all the rain would go away: we are awash in
Worcestershire - again!

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, Roland and Heather!

Heather, I'm familiar with "shmozzle" but didn't make the connection.
Congratulations! Personally I'd be highly surprised if it did not belong to
the group we have been discussing.  I remember reading years ago that it
came from Yiddish, but I don't remember where and if it was an authoritative
source.

Roland, Dutch *geelzucht* corresponds to German *Gelbsucht* ("yellow
disease") 'jaundice', *tucht* to *Zucht* 'discipline', 'proper conduct',
'sexual propriety', and *ontucht* to *Unzucht* (the opposite of *Zucht*).
(Remember that German "z" stands for the [ts] sound, and, at the beginning
of a syllable, "s" for the [z] sound.)
Yes, Roland, in Low Saxon we tend to say *vleyder* (*Fleder*) for 'elder
(bush)' and *vleyderbeer* (*Flederbeer, Flederbäär*) for 'elderberry'.
(Note: English "alder" is *eller* from **elder*!) This was fine, and there
was no confusion ... until German started taking over seriously. In my
Hamburg Missingsch (and there used to be several such German dialects with
LS substrata in Hamburg alone) we say *Flieder* and
*Fliederbeere*respectively. And this is not so fine, or not so
convenient, with regard to
the former, and I remember being quite confused about it as a child. The
sound correspondence is consistent. But *Flieder* also means 'lilac', as it
does in "proper" German! German *Holunder* for 'elder (bush)' was unknown to
me until I went to school or read it somewhere. So, for the longest time I
thought that elder flowers were just wild cousins of the flowers of the more
cultivated lilac, and I wondered why they looked and smelled so different.
So this is what can happen if things get borrowed haphazardly. In both
"proper" language varieties it's consistent:

Botanical: *Sambucus nigra* v *Syringa vulgaris*
English: *elder* v *lilac*
Low Saxon: *vleyder* v *siring*
German: *Holunder* v *Flieder*
Missingsch: *Flieder* v *Flieder***

By the way, for me and probably for many others from my neck of the woods,
both plants are greatly loved. (And I think of hawthorn with similar
nostalgia.) The elder in particular plays an important role in folklore all
over Northern Europe and used to be considered sacred but also dangerous if
mistreated. Besides, its berries are delicious and come with health
benefits. We discussed this a long time ago, and this seems to be an
enormous topic with lots and lots of regional variations. If you want to
discuss these cultural aspects, folks, please separate it under "Traditions"
from the etymological thread.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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