LL-L "Phonology" 2008.07.02 (05) [E]

[Lowlands-L List]

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L O W L A N D S - L  - 02 July 2008 - Volume 01
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From: Ivison dos Passos Martins <ipm7d at OI.COM.BR>
Subject: Dutch dialects

Hallo!

  Do all dialects show the oe pronunciation same as in Dutch boek, or
there is different pronunciation among them?

  And, sorry for those "(extraneous) questions about Danish phonology". I
did't mean to mess up. I really compare germanic languages and I know they
all share a common ancestor. It's like I wanted to discover when the
long /o/ and /i/ changed. But sincerely, I know I have brought some
extraneous questions here and I know I was wrong in doing that.

  I do apologize.

  Ívison.

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language studies" 2008.07.01 (04) [E]

Ron wrote about long o/oo in Dutch that it sounds like [o:] or as the
diphthong o in English broke.
A diphthong is standard for long oo and ee, monophthongs are not heard in
Standard Dutch (other than before r), except when spoken with a strong Low
Saxon (but not LS from the North), Limburgian or Flemish accent, but that
are regional pronunciations influenced by the local dialects and not
accepted as standard.

But à vison, to avoid confusion: what Ron wrote was not about the vowel in
the counterparts of E book, that has oe [u] not a long o sound in Dutch,
it's just about the pronunciation of written long o/oo.

In the Netherlands, the Low Saxon dialects of Hamaland (Eastern Achterhoek
region, province Gelderland + Twente region, province Overyssel) do have a
long monophthong [o:] in book [bo:k] = Dutch boek [buk] = E book, as well
as long monophthong [e:] in leed [le:t] = Dutch lied [lit] = E song and so
do a few Central Drenthe LS dialects and most of Limburgian.

As Rein stated, the articles in Scandinavian were an off topic so I tried
to make the connection with Lowlandic by asking if den de det before an
article + noun may have been influenced by Low Saxon, which had an
enormous influence on the Scandinavian languages, because normally i.e.
without adjective they use suffixes for articles.
Norwegian, both Nynorsk and Bokmål, has the double construction:
both den/de/det before the article + noun and the suffixes behind the noun.

The fact that Icelandic is the only language that does not have the
construction with articles before the adjective but only the usual
suffixes reinforces my hunch of Low Saxon influence. Anyone?

Groeten
Ingmar

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language studies" 2008.07.01 (04) [E]

Ron wrote about long o/oo in Dutch that it sounds like [o:] or as the
diphthong o in English broke.
A diphthong is standard for long oo and ee, monophthongs are not heard in
Standard Dutch (other than before r), except when spoken with a strong Low
Saxon (but not LS from the North), Limburgian or Flemish accent, but that
are regional pronunciations influenced by the local dialects and not
accepted as standard.

But à vison, to avoid confusion: what Ron wrote was not about the vowel in
the counterparts of E book, that has oe [u] not a long o sound in Dutch,
it's just about the pronunciation of written long o/oo.

In the Netherlands, the Low Saxon dialects of Hamaland (Eastern Achterhoek
region, province Gelderland + Twente region, province Overyssel) do have a
long monophthong [o:] in book [bo:k] = Dutch boek [buk] = E book, as well
as long monophthong [e:] in leed [le:t] = Dutch lied [lit] = E song and so
do a few Central Drenthe LS dialects and most of Limburgian.

As Rein stated, the articles in Scandinavian were an off topic so I tried
to make the connection with Lowlandic by asking if den de det before an
article + noun may have been influenced by Low Saxon, which had an
enormous influence on the Scandinavian languages, because normally i.e.
without adjective they use suffixes for articles.
Norwegian, both Nynorsk and Bokmål, has the double construction:
both den/de/det before the article + noun and the suffixes behind the noun.

The fact that Icelandic is the only language that does not have the
construction with articles before the adjective but only the usual
suffixes reinforces my hunch of Low Saxon influence. Anyone?

Groeten
Ingmar

----------

From: Robert Haslach <roberthaslach at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language studies" 2008.07.01 (04) [E]

In my auditory experience - oo in standard Dutch lengthens to a low o while
here in the US the oo becomes ou but varies widely by English dialect/accent
region

regards,
Robert Haslach

----------

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at mhsc.org.za>
Subject: LL-L "Language studies" 2008.07.01 (04) [E]

Hi all,

Ron, 'boek' is not pronounced with a long diphtong but with a short [u] and
without a schwa, hence [buk],
as are:

soek [suk], doek [duk], vloek [fluk], koek [kuk],  etc.

Your description is that of an English speaker using Afrikaans.

Regards,

Elsie
Ron: In Afrikaans it represents a long [u:] sound followed by a short schwa
sound.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Hi, Elsie!

I may have misunderstood Ívison's question. I responded to how written "oo"
was pronounced in the various languages.

Hi, Ívison!

Don't worry about it, and don't let my reminders of the focus dampen your
enthusiasm. As I said, I think it's just terrific that you're getting into
Germanic languages beyond English. If you keep our focus in mind it becomes
easier to rephrase your questions.

Regard,
Reinhard/Ron
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