LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.07.03 (04) [E]

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From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.07.03 (03) [E]

Düüre NiidenLänners orr SiigLänners & Reginhart,

once more to the core-character of the (post-LS) Berlin Language
("missingsch" or Eastmiddelgerman-Meissnian):

Reading the textbook "Der richtige Berliner in Wörtern und Redensarten" (The
real Berliner in words and colloquialisms) from Hans Meyer et. al. (9
editions 1873-approx. 1920, 10th edition 1965 and 1985), a cited source also
in Agatha Lasch's "Berlinisch",

=> I found in this kind of enhanced Berlin dictionary a valuation which
might back somewhat R. F. Hahn's characterization of modern Berlinish as
"Missingsch" (mingled lg.):

"The Berlin dialect belongs predominantly to the Low German. It is
penetrated with various foreign ingredients, so that one can hardly speek of
a regularity in the relationsship to the German dialect groups. Many words
are used only in High German form; others like: Kule, kiesetig, steekern,
talen are fairly Low German." (10th ed., p. 37)

Indeed looking at the result one might get the impression of Missingsch, but
one has to take in account the historical-linguistical analysis of Agathe
Lasch, that there had been an adoption of the spoken Meissnian of the 15th,
16th century (not yet fully consonant- and only partly vocal-shifted to the
later HiGerman Standard), first by the upper (commercial) classes of Berlin
and in the following times spreading to the franconian royal house, to
the lower classes and Brandenburg.

Juutjeen! joachim

28.06.2008 klok 19:45 R. F. Hahn hadde frauget:

Joachim, I wonder if you agree with my characterization of traditional
Berlin dialects as Missingsch. I know it's not officially known as such, but
it's undeniable that it has strong Low Saxon substrata.


29.06.2008 klok 01:43 hewwe ik anfert:

Low Saxon substrata, without doubts. But one have to take into account that
there were some elements in (Middle German) Meissnian of that time, that
were equal or similar to LS elements, as shown in Lasch's Table I reported.

So it depends, what you understand under "Missingsch". A. Lasch rejects the
hypothesis of Berlinish as High German/Low Saxon mixed language, because it
is in kernel/core Meissnian, but with LS substrata saved or even reimported
(as "ik", "det") in the 18/19th century.

Juutjeen,
joachim aus Olle-Pankowe
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