LL-L "Grammar" 2008.07.08 (05) [E]
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L O W L A N D S - L - 08 July 2008 - Volume 05
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From: Marsha Wilson <marshatrue at mtangel.net>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2008.07.08 (03) [E]
In the U.S., many of us would say, incorrectly, "they" ran down the
street. More properly it would be "He or she" ran down the street.
Marsha Wilson
in sunny Oregon
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Lowlands-L List <lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM>
From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar"
Beste Lowlanners abroad,
how do you in English use the gender of the word *_person_* *(neuter)* in
the following context?
Just imagine, you watched a person which (or who?) is suspected to have been
involved in a crime. Because it was dark, you could not see, if it had
been a man or a woman. How do you tell it the police constable?
"I saw a tall *person* with a black hat and a grey coat. (_He_? _She_?
_It_?) ran down the street to the left side." It should be 'it', I guess?
But it sounds in a certain way strange for me.
(If I would replace _person_ by 'individual' my problem wouldn't be solved!)
----------
From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2008.07.08 (03) [E]
The average native speaker would probably use "they" to refer to a person of
unknown sex. So it would be:
"I saw a tall *person* with a black hat and a grey coat. They ran down the
street to the left side."
You would probably explain to the police that you couldn't tell if it was a
man or a woman, or you might say something like, "He, or maybe it was a she,
ran down the street to the left side." But you'd never use "it" because
you're talking about a human being. About the only time you'd use "it" to
refer to a person would be if you were talking about a baby and asked, "Is
it a boy or a girl?"
Kevin Caldwell
From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar"
Beste Lowlanners abroad,
how do you in English use the gender of the word *_person_* *(neuter)* in
the following context?
Just imagine, you watched a person which (or who?) is suspected to have been
involved in a crime. Because it was dark, you could not see, if it had
been a man or a woman. How do you tell it the police constable?
"I saw a tall *person* with a black hat and a grey coat. (_He_? _She_?
_It_?) ran down the street to the left side." It should be 'it', I guess?
But it sounds in a certain way strange for me.
(If I would replace _person_ by 'individual' my problem wouldn't be solved!)
----------
From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2008.07.08 (03) [E]
From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de <jonny.meibohm at arcor..de>>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar"
Beste Lowlanners abroad,
how do you in English use the gender of the word *_person_* *(neuter)* in
the following context?
Just imagine, you watched a person which (or who?) is suspected to have been
involved in a crime. Because it was dark, you could not see, if it had
been a man or a woman. How do you tell it the police constable?
"I saw a tall *person* with a black hat and a grey coat. (_He_? _She_?
_It_?) ran down the street to the left side." It should be 'it', I guess?
But it sounds in a certain way strange for me.
(If I would replace _person_ by 'individual' my problem wouldn't be solved!)
********************
Hi Jonny,
In these situations, a common get-out in English is to say "they", even if
there's only one of them, since plurals have no gender. "They ran down the
street etc." Looked at logically, it sounds a bit odd, I know, but it sounds
quite normal in everyday speech.
Paul F-B
----------
From: ipm7d at oi.com.br
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2008.07.08 (03) [E]
Beste Jonny
>
Well I hope these examples may help you anyway:
a) Just because a person doesn't agree with that issue doesn?t mean
that, therefore,
"they" don't worry about the global warming. They replaces he / she.
Remember english is trying not to be sexist here.
b) If one person is more abrupt does not mean "he" or "she" is cold.
c) I saw (someone somebody a stranger ) a person on the street
d) Today Gina saw someone behind the house. To be precise, he was
wearing a pair of glasses... In this case it depends on
if you think it was a man or a woman.
[Ívison dos Passos Martins]
----------
From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2008.07.08 (03) [E]
But, my dear Watson, how could you be sure that his/her/its hat was black
and his/her/its coat grey? Everything looks grey and black in the dark ;-)
And a tall person with a black hat, wouldn't that probably a guy anyway ;)
In Dutch we would say something like "Ik zag iemand, lang met een zwarte
hoed en een grijze jas. Die rende de straat door aan de linkerkant."
"Iemand" = someone, somebody, and "die" is that, both for males and
females, so not only for females as in German. Dutch "die man" = that
man, "die vrouw" = that woman, etc.
But "de persoon" or "het mens" would both be possible too. "Persoon"
sounds pretty formal, I think a police officer would rather use that than
a witness. Probably I'd say: "Ik zag iemand, ik weet niet of het een man
of een vrouw was, met een zwarte hoed op en een grijze jas aan... Die
rende etc."
Ingmar
From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar"
Beste Lowlanners abroad,
how do you in English use the gender of the word *_person_* *(neuter)* in
the following context?
Just imagine, you watched a person which (or who?) is suspected to have
been
involved in a crime. Because it was dark, you could not see, if it had
been a man or a woman. How do you tell it the police constable?
"I saw a tall *person* with a black hat and a grey coat. (_He_? _She_?
_It_?) ran down the street to the left side." It should be 'it', I guess?
But it sounds in a certain way strange for me.
(If I would replace _person_ by 'individual' my problem wouldn't be
solved!)
In Low Saxon we have got the same problem: "Ick hebb eyn' Perzoun seyhn *
(we
like to avoid past tense, because present and past tense, as in this
case, often sound identically!)* mit eyn' swatten Hout un' eyn' griesen
Mantel. *De* loyp linkerhand de Stroat hendaol." *'de'* denotes masculine
as
well as female, but in LS 'Perzoun' (like in 'dat Manns-Perzoun' or 'dat
Frouwens-Perzoun') is neuter, so correctly it *should* be 'dat'. I guess it
to be influenced by Standard German.
In German all nouns have a clear gender, which have grammatically to be
used straight: "Ich sah ein*e* Person *(fem.)* mit schwarzem Hut und grauem
Mantel. *Sie* lief nach links die Straße hinab." (Don't ask me, why a
_Person_ in German is of female gender! Ladies first? I guess it is
deriving from Latin 'person*a*'.)
Though- many speakers would say: "Mir kam *das* kleine Mädchen auf dem
Fahrrad irgendwie seltsam vor. *Sie* sah so ganz anders aus als ihre
Freundinnen." ("The little girl on the bike appeared somehow strange to me.
She looked completely different from*(?)* her mates.") '*sie*' is wrong in
this case; it should be '*es*'.
Allerbest, and thanks in award!
Jonny Meibohm
----------
From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2008.07.08 (03) [E]
Leyve Reinhard,
Du schreyvst:
*> Dat persoon*, Jonny?! I say *dey** persoon* and *sey*, thus make it
feminine.
> Besides, it sounds a bit "yellow" to me as well as 19th century to me. *Dey
minsch* (original "human being") would be my choice, a noun with > masculine
gender, unless it denotes an unpleasant woman, in which case it is neuter
(!) *dat minsch*.
Yes, yes- you're absolutely right! I made some more thoughts about it and
found out that indeed I use LS _Perzoun_ as a neuter- but always and
exclusively with an additional, *valuating* adjective. I'd indeed keep
saying 'Dat is man 'n lütt' Perzoun!' (It is just a small person.)
But we can do so in German, too: "Ich hab' heute unsere neue Nachbarin
kennengelernt. Das scheint 'ne ganz patente Person zu sein!" ("Today I met
our new neighbour. *It* seems to be quite a nice person.") This sounds to
be Northern German dialect to me, do you agree?
So we might deal with the well-known difference between speaking or writing
a language *s*.
BTW: It won't last for long, and then probably YOU will be my last and only
serious critical! My oldest uncle begins to become deaf and is no longer
able to talk Platt with me, the second one died three weeks ago, and one of
my local mentors 'liggt syd gystern tou Bankstoul', meaning: he also died
yesterday. Me to become one of the last local authorities for LS? A very
strange thought for me, but showing the rapidness of the degeneration of LS
as a rural, aboriginal and *spoken* language.
Allerbest; houl Dy fuchtich un' noch lang gesund ;-)!
Jonny Meibohm
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar
Hi again, Jonny!
Aha! Now I understgan d what's going on here.
This kind of German *das* or Low Saxon *dat*, just like the English
equivalent *that* in such constructions, is a demonstrative pronoun that,
less "demonstratively," can be substituted with *es* and *it* in German and
English. (It remains *dat* in Low Saxon dialects that have lost *es* or *it*.)
"Overuse" of this *das* is typically North German, owing to a Low Saxon
substratum.
This *das* / *dat* / *that* does not modify the noun. It *refers* to it,
basically means "that which you see there is ..." or "what you have there is
..." or something like that.
*Das* scheint *'ne* ganz patente Person zu sein!
See? You're using *'ne* for "a", which is feminine.
*That* seems to be *a* pretty smart person.
This demonstrative *das* / *that* is neutral, usually used where you don't
know the gender. You could also use *es* / *it* as a neutral personal
pronoun here:
*Es* scheint *'ne* ganz patente Person zu sein!
*It* seems to be *a* pretty smart person.
If you do know the gender, and you do here (the new female neighbor) you can
use the specific personal pronoun:
*Sie* scheint *'ne* ganz patente Person zu sein!
*She* seems to be *a* pretty smart person.
You can say:
*Das *ist meine Frau, *das *ist mein Sohn, und *das *ist mein Haus.
*Dat* is myn(e) vrou, *dat* is myn soen, un *dat* is myn huus.
*That* is my wife, *that* is my son, and *that* is my house.
This vagueness is the usual thing. But, see, the "my" part is specific, here
feminine, masculine and neuter, in this order.
However, let's assume there are several women, several boys and several
houses (such as in a picture) and you need to answer the questions which of
them is your wife, which is your son and which is your house, then you can
use a demonstrative-colored (emphasized) personal pronoun in each case (for
instance while pointing to each of them):
*Sie *ist meine Frau, *er *ist mein Sohn, und *das *(not *es*!) ist mein
Haus.
*Sey* is myn(e) vrou, *hey* is myn soen, un *dat* is myn huus.
*She* is my wife, *he *is my son, and *that* (not "it"!) is my house.
In the non-applicability of "it" you can see that emphasis or demonstration
is at play, in which case "it" is too "weak," because it is a neutral
pronoun that is rarely used demonstratively. (It is used emphatically in
phrases such as "That's exactly *it*!" and I guess some people might say "*
It* is what I mean" instead of the usual "*That* is what I mean.")
Non-emphatically, you may say in answer to the question "Who is *she*?":
*Sie *ist meine Frau.
*Sey* is myn(e) vrou.
*She* is my wife.
But most people keep it simple and say:
*Das *ist meine Frau.
*Dat* is myn(e) vrou.
*That*'s my wife.
Your wife said she would call you later, the phone rings while someone is in
your office, and you say:
*Das *ist meine Frau.
*Dat* is myn(e) vrou.
*That*'s/*It*'s my wife.
My point is that this type of "that" does not modify the noun, that it is
independent of the noun and its gender, although it refers to it.
What's the trouble?
The trouble? It's his wife. His *wife *is the trouble.
Seine Frau ist das Problem.
*Die* Frau ist immer *das* Problem.
*Sie* ist *ein* *Besen*.
See what I mean?
*Person* ~ *persoon* is feminine. So there! ;-)
Have I confused you more than you need to be?
Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron
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