LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.15 (03) [E]

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L O W L A N D S - L - 15 June 2008 - Volume 03
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.14 (02) [E]

In the Low Saxon speaking areas of the Netherlands, uvular pronunciation
of R has always been seen as an exception, a speech-defect, an affectation

But there is one interesting exception: the old Hansa towns along the
Yssel river, from North to South: Hasselt, Kampen, Zwolle, Hattum,
Zutphen, Doesburg pronounce their R-s uvularly, unlike the surrounding
country side. The same goes for the Low Franconian speaking Hansa cities
of Arnhem and Nymegen a bit further South.

Final R isn't usually pronounced in these areas (compare it to British
English and Northern German), but in the uvular towns, it is and it
effects the vowels into palatals:

ärm [{R at m] for arm ["ar at m]/[arm]/[a:m]/[a at m] Dutch arm = poor/arm, däör
[d9:R] for daor [dO:@] Dutch daar = there, zörg ["z9R at x] for zorg ["zQr at x]/
[zQrx]/["zQ at x] Dutch zorg = sorrow/care, kärke ["k{R at k@] for karke
["kark@]/["ka:k@]/[ka at k@] Dutch kerk = church.

May this uvular R in Hansa towns be German influenced? And from what area
in Germany then?

Ingmar

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L Phonolpgy

 Some time ago Ron had questions about "rolling" the uvular R.

Actually a rolling uvular R is quite common for Belgian Dutch speakers from
Brussels, Tongeren, ... (towns relatively close to the language border),
even Ghent (town with a French speaking bourgeoisie for a long time).

I found a book today with a brief instruction how to learn and how (not) to
pronounce both rR as commonly heard in Belgian Dutch (In the Netherlands
they even have a larger variety of "r"s).

I scanned:
- for the *apico-alveolar r*:
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/apal.jpg
- for the *uvular R*:
http://www.euro-support.be/temp/uv.jpg
Ron, pse try exercise nr 30. I'm sure it will work.

What is listed as "fout" (error) may be heard incidentally as variant.

Both are scanned from:
Greet Huybrechts e.a., "*Articulatie in de praktijk: consonanten*", Acco,
Leuven & Voorburg, zesde druk, 2007, ISBN 978-90-334-4030-4, 280 pp.

The book is not very interesting for learning scientifically about
pronounciation. It is more a collection of "*long lists of words*" for each
phoneme in combination with other relevant and intentionally choosen
phonemes as *exercise material for patients of logopedists*.

There is a similar publication for vowels:
Greet Huybrechts e.a., "*Articulatie in de praktijk: vocalen en
diftongen*",
Acco, Leuven & Voorburg, zesde druk, 2007, ISBN 978-90-334-4031-1, 123 pp.

Enjoy the gargling,
Regards,
Roger

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Thanks a lot, Roger!

I'll practice it. I can already do it but not dry. ;-)

Here is my translation:

  - Gargling with a little water, head tilted back
  - The same exercise without water, perhaps with a little saliva; vocal
  chords must vibrate
  - Gargling with head tilted back, saying R while bringing head back up
  - R between two vowels: aaRaa, eeRee ...
  - In combination with a back consonant, preferably k: kRaa, kRee ...
  - The gradually omitting the kRaa, kRaa, Raa ..
  - Practicing the rest of the possible combinations and positions

By the way, I think the clearest pronunciation of the trilled uvular r is
that of the recording for the Wren translation in Nieuwpoort West Flemish:
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/westvlams2.php

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.13 (06) [E]

Hi Ron and All,

Regarding rhotic English, the modern Standard and the spread of London or
Estuary speech have muddied the waters somewhat. When you look at most
dialects nearly all southern forms (except London and Standard) sound a
medial "r", nearly always an American-style retroflex one. You'll still hear
it in the non-"Essexised" parts of East Anglia, and again from Oxfordshire
all the way across to Devon. Formerly it occurred in the counties south of
London too, Sussex and Kent, though Estuary has more or less wiped it out.

The change comes at the Midlands, and by Northern England it is pretty much
absent.  "Dark" will be something like "daak" as opposed to "daarrk" in
Devon. The far north, e.g Cumbria and NorthumberlandNorth, don't sound it.
Yet when you cross into Scotland, it comes back even stronger - but trilled
this time, not retroflex.

I believe there is a clue in place-names: Danish names occur throughout the
East Midlands and North, but fall off quite sharply into Scotland (though
not exactly in line with the relatively recent modern border).  Rhotic
English thus seems to occur in the more "Saxon" or "Angle" bits, and is lost
in the Scandinavian parts.  London and Standard confuse the picture because
the Standard is in fact mostly based on Mediaeval East Midlands forms.
That's what Chaucer, and ultimately the English Court used, because
the powerful money-men, the merchant class, used it as a lingua franca
bridging North and South.

So why would Scandinavians kill off a medial "r" when all modern
Scandinavian languages as far as I know, use it? My pure speculation is that
Danish and English had different medial "r"s, an neither really heard the
other one properly - a bit like English speakers thinking that Japanese use
"r" for "l". So in effect everyone said it "wrong" and it smeared itself
out.

Pure speculation as I say, but I believe the geography stacks up, even if
the linguistics doesn't!

Paul Finlow-Bates
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Phonology

Thanks, Ingmar and Paul!

Before I forget to mention it again ... I can pronounce the uvular /r/
(approximant) just fine, using it natively in German. My mother pronounced
it, even though her parents both used the apical /r/, her father as a
speaker of Mecklenburg Low Saxon and her mother as a speaker of Lower
Silesian German (where the apical /r/ is now disappearing) with an Upper
Sorbian substratum. My father could only use the apical /r/, which was
typical of people of his generation of that place, probably of most of
Northern Germany, irrespective of if they grew up speaking Low Saxon or not,
because Northern German still had a much stronger Low Saxon substratum then.

What I've been having some problems with is the *trilled* uvular /r/. You
can hear it not only in many Belgian Dutch varieties but also in Walloon,
Picard etc., and of course in the Francien varieties of French in the
Île-de-france.
You hear it very clearly for instance in Edit Piaf's songs. And, by the way,
it is also used in "Stage German".

Ingmar, I definitely don't think the uvular /r/ was spread by the Hanseatic
League. We can safely assume that all of Northern Germany used the apical
trill. I suspect that most of the spread of the uvular /r/ emanated from the
Rhine area and west of it. What I find very interesting is that a good
number of Eastern Yiddish dialects have the uvular /r/. This is surprising
considering that they are surrounded by East European languages that use the
apical /r/. Two possibilities spring to mind: (1) it goes back to the
Franco-Rhenish area in which Yiddish began, or (2) it began as a type of *
daytshmerizm*, a German-inspired affectation, in more recent times.

Paul, thanks for all the interesting information. You have an interesting
theory. You wrote:

So why would Scandinavians kill off a medial "r" when all modern
Scandinavian languages as far as I know, use it?

There is a uvular /r/ "island" -- with apparently no connection to the
aforementioned area -- encompassing Denmark and the Scanian part of Southern
Sweden, and with it comes non-rhoticism (usually schwa with or without
r-coloring for *-er* and *-r*). Due to Danish rule it spread to the Bergen
area of Norway, where, however, non-rhoticism is absent or rare. I don't kn
ow if this has any bearing on your theory.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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