LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.27 (04) [E]

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L O W L A N D S - L  - 27 June 2008 - Volume 04
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.06.26 (05) [D/E]

Jonny:
What about Standard German '(eine) ganze Menge'?

Ron:
"Little" is not a Scandinavian loan.

Please read carefully: I wrote "...My intuition says that THE USAGE of
small and little in English is originally from Scandinavian"  and  "It
looks like the difference between much and many. >In the Scandinavian
languages we see myck etc. and menge etc., whereas German has only 'viel'
and Dutch 'veel'..."

So yes, of course, German has "Menge" and "manchmal", Dutch has "menig"
etc., and Dutch has "luttel" and these words are related to their English
and Scandinavian equivalents. And schmal and smal are related to small.

But the usage of little/small and much/many in English is the same as in
the Scandinavian languages, but very different from German and Dutch.
Even "few" has its exact counterpart in Scandinavian "få", whereas German
has "wenig" and Dutch "weinig".

In Dutch and German we have but one form for both singular and plural, and
the words used are different from the English and Scandinavian ones:

much = viel (G) / veel (NL)
many = viel (G) / veel (NL)

little = klein (G / NL)
small = klein  (G / NL)

little = wenig (G) / weinig (NL)
few = wenig (G) / weinig (NL)

much = mycket (Swedish) / meget, megen (Danish)
many = många (S) / mange (D)

little = liten (S) / lille, liden (D)
small = små (S / D)

little = lite (S) / lidet (D)
few = få (S / D)

Dutch and German are closely related West-Germanic languages, as can be
seen here, and Low Saxon fits into that picture, too (at least my own LS
dialects and actually most/all LS in the Netherlands) and so does Frisian.

English is a West-Germanic language as well, but once quite strongly
influenced by the Norse (Scandinavian) of the Vikings from Denmark and
Norway.

I think the usage of much/many and little/small/few in English has been
influenced by Scandinavian.
The related words themselves already may have existed in Old English - as
they did in Old German, Old Franconian, Old Saxon etc. - but the way they
are used now is actually typically Scandinavian-like.

That's very interesting, isn't it? Maybe there are more of thes conceiled
Scandinavianism in English?

Ingmar


From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2008.06.26 (02) [E]

 Beste Ingmar,

Du schreyvst:

> My intuition says that the usage of small and little in English is
> originally from Scandinavian, i.e. Old Norse, Old Danish, Old Norwegian.
> In the other West Germanic languages (other than English) "smal"
> and "schmal" have a different meaning, in Dutch and German "klein" in the
> word for both little and small.
I'm not sure about a Scandinavian influence here, because in our Low Saxon
you may use 'small' the same way like in English. And in Standard German we
use terms like e.g. 'schmale Kost', meaning E 'slender diet'= 'small meal'.

> It looks like the difference between much and many.
> In the Scandinavian languages we see myck etc. and menge etc., whereas
> German has only 'viel' and Dutch 'veel'.
What about Standard German '(eine) ganze Menge', meaning both 'much' and
'many'?

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Etymology

"Little" is not a Scandinavian loan. It goes back to Old English *lýtel* ~
*
lytel*, cf. Old Saxon *luttil*, Old German *luzzil* (> dialect. *lützel*),
Middle Dutch *luttel* (> *luttel*), Old Norse *lítell*, Gothic *leitils* <
Germanic **lîtilo*. This is a diminutive form based on Old English
*lýt*(cf. Old Saxon
*lut* >  Modern *l**ütt*, cf. Scandinavian *lítt* < Germanic **lut ~ *lût*)
which gave dialectical English *lite* 'small', 'insignificant'. Another
derivation with the meaning 'small' are Old Saxon *luttik* (> *l**üttig*),
Old Frisian *littich* and Old German *luzzîg.*

My theory is that, if not semantically intended from the outset, the
diminutive form favored the semantic inclusion of "cuteness" (e.g., "the
(cute/poor) little bird" vs "the small bird" = "small in size").
"Little-ness" tends to be associated with vulnerability, hence appealing to
one's protector instinct with "cuteness," while "small" refers to size
without this emotional appeal. "Little" is therefore often associated with
"poor" in the sense of "pitiable." In "poor", semantic inclusion of
"destitute" and "deprived" and in extension "pitiable" seems to have come
with importation of Norman *pover ~ pore ~ pour ~ povere ~ poevere ~
puvre*,
since all Romance cognates can be used in the sense of "pitiable" as well,
just as they do the Germanic equivalents.

*Klein* for 'small' and 'little' is normal in Dutch and German. There are
some Low Saxon dialects that use *kleen* [klɛˑɪn] ~ *klein* [klaˑɪn], but
most use *l**ütt* [lʏt]. In all three languages you can use *arm* the same
way as you use "poor", i.e. with the extended sense of 'pitiable'. (In the
very north, Low Saxon *Stackel* can be used for 'pitiable person', probably
derived from Jutish *stakkel*, related to the adjective
*stakkels*'pitiable', possibly derived from an old sense of "cripple"
or perhaps
"toddler" = "someone that staggers about").

In some Low Saxon dialects you can use *pover* strictly in the sense of
'poor' = 'indigent'. This is a French loan, a more recent one than English
"poor". Note that this can *not* be used in the sense of 'pitiable'.

English "small" is related to German *schmal* and Low Saxon *smaal*, both
usually meaning 'narrow' but, as Jonny points out above, 'small' in some
idiomatic expressions.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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