LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.03.14 (02) [E]

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L O W L A N D S - L - 14 March 2008 - Volume 02
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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties"

Beste Ron,

You wrote:

I can't give you an authoritative answer to your question. But while we're
at it, let me just throw into the arena that I have also read about the
claim that the sentence is more likely to be Old Limburgish than Old Dutch.

Old Limburgish? First time I hear this. Most people connect the sentence
with early Western Flemish, possibly with Frisian overtones. Others think
more specifically of French Flanders (Calais region), some even see Kentish
influence in the text (number of Flemish monks crossing the channel,
increased after William the Conqueror). But Limburgish???

By the way, "hinase" means "except": hinase < hit ne sē, which has become
"tenzij" in modern Dutch, "unless". As far as I know, "tenzij" is no dialect
term these days, but "tenware" (< het en ware) definitely is, my mom uses it
quite frequently, pronounced "twáá".

More info about "Olla Uogala...":
http://www.inl.nl/onw/literatuur-vogala.html

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hi, Luc!

I'm not completely sure where I came across that statement of reference. It
could have been in Orrin W. Robinson, *Old English and its Closest
Relatives: A Survey of the Earliest Germanic Languages*, Routledge 1992. I
don't have access to it right now. So I can't check.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.03.14 (02) [E]

Maybe it is better to say: the oldest known text in Old SOUTH WEST Low
Franconian, i.e. the Flemish dialect group of Dutch, incl. French Flemish
(France), West Flemish (Belgium) and Zeeland Flemish (the Netherlands).
This is a dialect group with many so called Ingvaeonic or North Sea
Germanic features, an example here is "o" in stead of "a" in "olla".
Typically Dutch is "v" in stead of "f" in "vogala", even though present
day German has "Vogel", too, for some reason I like to know more about.
German has usually f where Dutch has v, but V in words like "Vater",
"Vogel", "Vieh". I can imagine "vier" in contrast with "fünf", and "vor"
against "für", but about the other words it seems rather random. Maybe it
has something to do with the old Gothic spelling of German? Like in
English where many words are spelt with "mo-" in stead of "mu", and "wo"
instead of "wu", because it was better readable in handwriting.

Back to that sentence, "Hebban Olla Vogala Nestas Higunnan Hinase Hic Enda
Thu, Uuat Unbidan Uui Nu?". Lit "Have all the birds begun nest except I
and thou, what are we waiting for now?"
Something that makes it likely to be Flemish is, apart from "olla", the H
in the word "hic", because in Flemish there is confusion about where H
should be pronounced or not.
Also "hic" (I) shows us that it's no Limburgish text, because of the hard
-k sound as in Dutch (incl Flemish), where Limburgish, like German, has
the ich-laut. The word "enda" (and) proves the Western Dutch origin even
more, in the East (Limburgish) it would be something like "unde".
I think in Anglo Saxon, there would not be a V but an F in vogala, no i
but e in uui (we), no uuat but huuat, no hic but i/iç, etc.
So that would make this little text Flemish, and that is part of Dutch.

But if this means it's the oldest text in Old Low Franconian? There are
also the older "Wachtendonkse Psalmen", but they have a clearly Limburgish
flavour, and are even claimed to be German...

Hebban olla liude her mine hertelice groete!
Ingmar

From: Georg.Deutsch at esa.int
Subject: Old Low Franconian

Dear Ron and all others,

in your translation of the speech made for you by the Flemish minister you
mention in your note commenting the sentence *Hebben olla vogala
[vogola]....:*
" oldest extant text in Old Low Franconian".

I know that according to the  (or at least an ) common opinion this is
indeed (one of) the oldest known Old Low Franconian texts.
However, I also had noticed that some consider this rather as an early
Anglo-Saxon text.
I cannot judge how serious this should be taken. Anybody around who can
enlighten me in this?

regards

Georg Deutsch

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Georg,

I can't give you an authoritative answer to your question. But while we're
at it, let me just throw into the arena that I have also read about the
claim that the sentence is more likely to be Old Limburgish than Old Dutch.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.03.14 (02) [E]

> From: Georg.Deutsch at esa.int
> Subject: Old Low Franconian
>
> Dear Ron and all others,
>
> in your translation of the speech made for you by
> the Flemish minister you
> mention in your note commenting the sentence *Hebben
> olla vogala [vogola]....:*
> " oldest extant text in Old Low Franconian".
>
> I know that according to the  (or at least an )
> common opinion this is
> indeed (one of) the oldest known Old Low Franconian
> texts.
> However, I also had noticed that some consider this
> rather as an early Anglo-Saxon text.
> I cannot judge how serious this should be taken.
> Anybody around who can enlighten me in this?
>
> regards
>
> Georg Deutsch

Georg,

I cannot say much on this topic, as this topic is
rather sensible, and only a handful good people are
chosen to be an authority in these matters.

But the latest news is that this 'olla vogala' text
[which is not the oldest attested sentence in dutch cg
lowfranconian] very well could be oldkentish, with a
slight difference in meaning.

And this view is the one I favour.

The vogala-text has -in the manuscript- a latin
parallel.
The old view said: the franconian text has been made
by a flemish student/monk and to explain the poem to
his english classmates he made the latin text.

Well, the latin text may be divided in 3 parts [count
the syllables] and then the kentish text is the
translation.

But don't tell all the good people that I favour this
view.
[The internet provides ample information.]

vr.gr.
Theo Homan
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