LL-L "Resources" 2008.03.23 (04) [E]
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Sun Mar 23 18:11:51 UTC 2008
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L O W L A N D S - L - 23 March 2008 - Volume 04
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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.03.22 (10) [E]
Dear Ron & All:
Subject: LL-L Resources
Ron's suggestion:
*
**"Beyond the Pale"*
A border-crossing guide for language learners
How does this grab everyone?
Jonny and Jacqueline have suggested the following categories:
False Friends
Words To Avoid
Words To Confuse
Vive la différence!
Ron Added:
I'm clear about "False Friends," not about the rest.
Could you explain?
My offering:
Words to avoid:
Necessary terminology like 'shag' or 'liquidate' or 'gay' or 'kaffir' or
'bitch', that have acquired metaphoric or pejorative connotations as a
result of euphemism or association. I do not insist they should not be
appropriately used, but the context aught to be clear & unambiguous in
advance.
Words to confuse:
Like 'pale' or 'gross' or 'fan' or 'batter' & my personal favourite, 'heavy
plant crossing', technical language or jargon or dialect, which confusion
generated can be enjoyed by everyone without offence, but for which clarity
is necessary in the technical context.
Vive la Difference!
I also don't quite understand:
Do we mean this? Like the elegant German term for your siblings,
'geschwistern'? People sound silly or prim when they speak in conversational
English about 'siblings', but what is the alternative? 'My brothers &
sisters'? - clumsy.
Or this? Like 'hunk' or 'stud muffin' or some other such meaty
categorisation of attractive maledom? & is it just me, or does it also seem
to others that if a girl says this sort of thing to or of a boy he preens,
but if he says something of the same sort about a girl her brothers go &
sort him out?
What about the difference between written false friends as spoken or
written?
Consider this, 'The Gey Gordans' doesn't mean a major clan of Scotland is
homosexual... it means they're grim (I wouldn't raise the subject with
them) .
Also, the difference between 'onesh' & 'ones' in Hebrew, for example, is one
diacritic point often omitted, or missed by the novice. However the one
means 'punish' & the other means 'rape'. Once I totally wrecked the thread
of a conversation that way...
Yrs,
Mark
----------
From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.03.22 (10) [E]
Ron,
a "Word To Avoid" e.g. would be to use the word _bloody_ in a church.
(I had done so as a pure and innocent youngster who just had learned a new
expression and caused a "stormy" reaction amongst my English companions!)
Another example I guess is all the problem around _nigger_ and _negroe_...
A "Word To Confuse" could be the different and difficult spelling of _to
pron*ou*nce_ vs. _pron*u*nciation_, or the very strange pronunciation of
_Worcester_ etc.; and a real confusing pair for me is English _to dwell_ vs.
LS _dweelen_, meaning about 'to sway' (but these possibly are candidates for
"False Friends", too...).
I also thought about "Words To Love" (some of my favorites here would be the
Dutch word _eeuw_ for 'century', [Dutch] LS _mekeer_ 'together' and the
German word _Wortschatz_ for 'treasury of words'); "Words To Hate" could be
another rubric, and my first choice here would be English _attitude_ as well
as German _Attitüde_- I hate them in the very depth of my heart because I am
unable to get a hand on them ;-)!
Perhaps it might not be exlusively single words but also idioms we could
collect.
Allerbest!
Jonny Meibohm
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From: Utz H. Woltmann <uwoltmann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.03.22 (11) [E]
Orville Crane wrote:
> A gift to me may be poison to you,
> but poison will never be a gift to me.
> The gift of poison just might be a pail of fish.
Hello Orville,
this brings a little French play on words into my mind, which I learned
in a French lesson at school: 'un poisson sans boisson est poison', in
English something like 'a fish without a drink is poison'.
Best regards
Utz H. Woltmann
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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2008.03.22 (11) [E]
Ron,
'Beyond the Pale' *sounds* really good- but what do you think about the
chances for the interested non-American user of Yahoo! to find out the
background behind this term? And I think you should bear in mind that we
need according expressions in other languages, too.
Allerbest!
Jonny Meibohm
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources
Thanks, guys!
Jonny, presenting this in more language versions than an English one would
be to complicated and labor-intensive. I would do what I usually do: embed
keywords in various languages that are unseen but respond to searches.
However, I suggest that submitted "mini-blurbs" (see below) be in any
language people choose.
Thanks for giving us your version, Mark. (And say hi to Ruth!) You wrote:
Vive la Difference!
Do we mean this? Like the elegant German term for your siblings,
'geschwistern'? People sound silly or prim when they speak in conversational
English about 'siblings', but what is the alternative? 'My brothers &
sisters'? - clumsy.
And here *la différence* vives even more! "Siblings" and the singular
"sibling" are now quite ordinary in American English while they still sound
"silly and prim" (academic? clinical?) in other Englishes. So there you get
a case of *une différence* within one language as well. German
*Geschwister*(and possible borrowed Low Saxon
*Geswister*) only exists in plural form, as do German *Eltern* and Low Saxon
*Öllern*, while English has the singular form *parent*, perhaps because it
is a Romance loan. So, yes, these are interesting cases of difference.
I think we should make "False Friends" one category and list both spoken and
written ones. It's important to keep things simple.
Jonny:
Dutch word _eeuw_ for 'century'
In Eastern Friesland and other western Low Saxon dialects also *Eeu*.
Another example I guess is all the problem around _nigger_ and _negroe_...
This is an import one to avoid in America, no matter how innocently it is
said and how neutral the meaning is in one's own language. I have heard
people say things like, "That's silly!" But that's a case of judgment of a
history and culture other than one's own.
Perhaps another example is that of Americans often saying "Germanic" when
they mean "German," and *vice versa*. While I do not join those Germans that
threw the baby out with the bath water by avoiding the word "Germanic" in *
any* contexts, I agree that Americans ought to learn that its use in place
of "German" is not the best choice.
So here we go:
- False Friends
- Words To Avoid
- Words To Confuse
- Vive la différence!
- Words I Love
- Words I Hate
"Words" here can be in the sense "expressions" and thus include idiomatic
phrases.
Here's my proposal.
"False Friends" will simply be a list or series of lists of juxtapositions,
without much explanation. E.g.:
*German*
* *
*English*
Word
Meaning
Word
Meaning
*eventuell*
potential(ly), possibly, contingent
* *
*eventual(ly)*
final(ly), ultimate(ly)
*aktuell*
current, newsworthy
* *
*actual(ly)*
real(ly), true, truly, in fact
(These two examples happen to be two of the biggies "Continentals" tend to
struggle with.)
All the other categories will be in the form of "mini-blurbs," like brief
messages, "signed" with the names (or "anonymous") and places of those that
submitted them; e.g., and I'm making this up, under "Words I Hate":
What about English "attitude" and German *Attitüde*? I hate them in the very
depth of my heart because I am unable to get a handle on them ;-)!
*Jonny Meibohm, Bremerhaven, Germany, March 23, 2008*
Get the idea?
I think the "messages" would make it easier and more entertaining to read,
and they would be more appropriate because personal opinions and feelings
are involved.
We should limit it to Lowlands language varieties, though. In other words,
at least one of the varieties in comparisons must be of Lowlands ilk.
So, folks, if you agree, keep 'em coming, either to the List or to me
directly, and perhaps we can launch the presentation during the anniversary
month. Send stuff under "Words" and in the body of your messages specify
which of the categories each submission is for.
Thanks and regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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