LL-L "Etymology" 2008.03.28 (01) [D/E/German]

Fri Mar 28 19:48:38 UTC 2008

========================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L  - 28 March 2008 - Volume 01
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please set the encoding mode to Unicode (UTF-8).
If viewing this in a web browser, please click on
the html toggle at the bottom of the archived page.
=========================================================================

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Ron,

You wrote:

I wonder if this is related to German *schnüffel-* (*schnüffeln*) 'to
sniffle', 'to snuffle', 'to sniff', 'to nuzzle', 'to snoop'. Of course, this
contains the frequentative or iterative suffix *-l-*. And then there is
German *schnupper-* (*schnuppern*) 'to sniff', this one with frequentative *
-r-*. I suspect this of being a Low Saxon loan, would expect it to be **
schnüffer-* otherwise. What do you think about this?

Also related: German "schnappen" (and Schnaps), English "to snap" (ablaut).

De Vries:

*Snoepen*: ww. eerst in de 17de eeuw, misschien < nnd. snōpen, vgl. oostfr.
snōpen 'snoepen', on. snōpa 'werkeloos afwachten', nzw. dial. snopa
'snoepen'; behoort dus tot de groep van snappen, vgl. nog vla. snoeperen en
snaperen 'snoepen'. --> amerik-eng. snoop 'in het geheim eten, rondsluipen'
(vgl. J. E. Neumann JEGPh 44, 1945, 275).

Compare Flemish "sneukelen" (= snoepen (D)) ~ "snakken".

Brabantish has "smuister" for candy and "smuisteren" for eating sweets.
Related to German "Schmaus" and "Schmutz".

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: Maria Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.03.27 (04) [E]

Hi all,

Ron, and in Afrikaans we use snoep as in snoepie/s (E. tuck shop or tuck
shop food), snoeperig (E. fussy eater or snobby eater).
Dutch origin or LS loan?

A. snuffel means to investigate (snuffelhond/snuffelgids) or to pry.

[I thought the German for E. sniffing was schnupfen.]

Elsie
I "discovered" another Dutch loanword in American English: "to snoop" in the
sense of 'consume dainties in a clandestine manner' (OED). The word first
appeared in print in the early 19th century.

The origin appears to be Dutch *snoep-* ([snu:p-], *snoepen*). The Low Saxon
cognate is *snoup-* ([snOUp-],* snoupen* (*snopen*)). (The vowel shift
equivalents are consistent.) Both have the same meaning, although the
"clandestine" part no longer needs to be there in the latter, often just
meaning 'to snack on treats' (or 'to graze' in the sense of having snacks).
This has been taken over into Hamburg Missingsch as *snopen* or
*schnopen*with the same meaning. The Standard German equivalent is
*naschen*.

What is interesting is that "to snoop" acquired the further meaning 'to pry
into matters one need not be concerned with'. The "clandestine" part appears
to play a role here, and perhaps there is the idea of "to pick up bits and
pieces of other people's affairs in a clandestine manner'.

I wonder if this is related to German *schnüffel-* (*schnüffeln*) 'to
sniffle', 'to snuffle', 'to sniff', 'to nuzzle', 'to snoop'. Of course, this
contains the frequentative or iterative suffix *-l-*. And then there is
German *schnupper-* (*schnuppern*) 'to sniff', this one with frequentative *
-r-*. I suspect this of being a Low Saxon loan, would expect it to be **
schnüffer-* otherwise. What do you think about this?

----------

From: Utz H. Woltmann <uwoltmann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.03.27 (01) [E]

Jonny Meibohm wrote:

> do you still remember our discussion about the use of *_Black_* in LS
> for a 'black horse'?
>
> You already sent me a very disturbing because technical "jargonized"
> proof.
> Today I happened to find another one: on the peninsula of Fehmarn
> (Germany, Baltic Sea) it had been or still is in use, so it might be
> spread over the Eastern part of Schleswig-Holstein(Ostholstein), too.
>
> I still wonder if it's of LS origin or a loan.

Moin Jonny,

Sure, I do remember. Thank you very much for this information.

I noticed that term some years ago, maybe in the Eastern part of
Schleswig-Holstein. At that time I had contact with a breeder of
Haflingers.
http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/horses/haflinger/
Other contacts were with breeders and owners of Friesians (near
Buxtehude) and Arabians (Lunenburg Heath).
http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/horses/friesian/
http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/horses/arabian/
But I had only very few contacts with owners of Quarter Horses or Paint
Horses. So I was astonished at not finding any postings at Google for
'Black' in Low Saxon language, but in German only for these horse, for
example in Wikipedia:
"Die AQHA kennt 17 verschiedene Fellfarben (übersetzt aus: Reference
Chart Color & Markings der AQHA):
1. Sorrel (Fuchs): Rötliches oder Kupferrotes Fell. Mähne und Schweif
sind normalerweise in derselben Farbe, können aber auch flachsblond
sein. Aalstriche sind möglich.
2. Black (Rappe): Schwarzes Fell ohne helle Stellen, sowie schwarze
Mähne und Schweif...."
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Quarter_Horse

For these horses the term 'Black' is definitely a loan. For other horses
I don´t know.

Best regards
Utz H. Woltmann

----------

From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.03.27 (04) [E]

Beste Ron,
Het Nederlands kent inderdaad "snoepen" en ook "snuffelen".
Een snoepje is een kleine lekkernij.
In iemands zaken snuffelen (scharrelen).
In Oostende kennen we: snoepern, sneukeln, smoefeln ...
Snoeplust is bij ons: snoepergoeste.
Hij die graag snoept is "e smoefeloare" of "e snoeperoare".
Ik vermoed dat snuffelen een freq. is (en terzelfdertijd een intensief) van
snuiven (rieken, ruiken).
Men gebruikt "snuffelen" immers heel vaak voor honden die geuren opsnuiven!
Op te snuiven tabak is snuif, bij ons "snuuf".
Als men iemand wandelen zend, kan men onvriendelijk zeggen: "Gon snuuf et!"
(ga het snuiven).
Toetnoasteki!
Roland Desnerck

----------

From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.03.27 (04) [E]

Beste Ron,

you wrote:

> The origin appears to be Dutch *snoep-* ([snu:p-], *snoepen*). The Low
Saxon cognate is *snoup-* ([snOUp-],* snoupen* (*snopen*)). (The vowel shift
equivalents are
> consistent.) Both have the same meaning, although the "clandestine" part
no longer needs to be there in the latter, often just meaning 'to snack on
treats' (or 'to
> graze' in the sense of having snacks). This has been taken over into
Hamburg Missingsch as *snopen* or *schnopen* with the same meaning. The
Standard German
> equivalent is *naschen*.

I havn't heard LS *snopen* in our region before. But I know _schnobern_ in
G., in our time a very rarely appearing word which is used in a related
sense.

http://www.koelnlexikon.mynetcologne.de/kds.html
says: "schnubbere, *schnobern* - beriechen, *stöbern*"; and GRIMM quotes
Goethe: "an der schwelle was schnoberst du hier?".
And so- here we are:
> 'to pry into matters one need not be concerned with'

> I wonder if this is related to German *schnüffel-* (*schnüffeln*) 'to
sniffle', 'to snuffle', 'to sniff', 'to nuzzle', 'to snoop'. Of course, this
contains the frequentative or iterative
> suffix *-l-*. And then there is German *schnupper-* (*schnuppern*) 'to
sniff', this one with frequentative *-r-*. I suspect this of being a Low
Saxon loan, would expect it to be
> **schnüffer-* otherwise.
You might see that you're on the right path- like mostly ;-)!

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

----------

From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.03.27 (04) [E]

Dear Ron:

Subject: LL-L: Words

You "discovered" another Dutch loanword in American English: "to snoop" in
the sense of 'consume dainties in a clandestine manner' (OED). The word
first appeared in print in the early 19th century.

Y'know, I once heard an ethnic German motivate an act of common courtesy on
my brother's part to a visiting & fellow German. To a quizzically raised
eyebrow he responded, "Joh, zie zind nicht 'schnoep', diezer Bauern." Pardon
my phonetic spelling. Anyhow, it was clear they understood each other, & I
assumed I understood them, since we use the word 'snoep' ourselves, in one
sense to refer to the opposite of generous, & in the other to 'scoff', as
you say in English. Understandably I didn't persue the linguistic issues, &
I was not aware of their ethnic affiliations.

You refer to the Standard German equivalent '*naschen'*. You must also be
aware of the English 'to nosh' & 'noshing' with a similar application to
'scoff' & with the same connotations of pleasure, but nothing illicit or
secretive to it.

Nice string.

Regards,
Mark

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, everyone, for the interesting, thought-provoking contributions to
this thread.

In the meantime (as snow is falling in front of my window in the end of
March!), I keep wrestling with the original meaning of the two lexical
suffixes *-l-* and *-r-*. I keep looking for verbs that form minimal pairs.

Here's an English pair that may exemplify their original meaning:

root: **tink *(supposedly onomatopoetic - the sound of something small
hitting metal or another type of hard surface)
> *tinkle* 'to urinate'
> *tinker* 'to hammer on metal/tin' > 'to do a tinsmith's work' > 'to busy
oneself with handicraft projects'

For now, I consider the first (-l-) "iterative," namely as describing "small
actions" in quick succession (here drops hitting a bowl). Another example is
"sparkle," i.e. "to spark in quick succession." I am tempted to assume that
there is an ancient connection with *-l* as a diminutive marker of nouns.

I am not sure about the second (-r-) but am calling it "frequentive" or
"continuative" for now, as indicating a succession of not necessarily
"small" actions, even though examples like "flicker," "flutter" and
"glitter" may suggest "small" actions. I tend toward using "frequentive,"
which connotes "regular" and "habitual," and I wonder if this *-r-* is
related to the ("regular") agent noun marker (*-ar* >) *-r *(e.g. "bake" >
"baker", "mill" > "miller").

All of the above seem to be very ancient and have equivalents beyond the
Germanic branch of Indo-European.

I would be interested in your takes on this and also in further minimal
pairs.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20080328/c6cc1e4f/attachment.htm>