LL-L "Etymology" 2009.08.09 (01) [DE-EN-FY-NL]

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L O W L A N D S - L - 09 August 2009 - Volume 01
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From: R. F. Hahn
<sassisch at yahoo.com<http://uk.mc264.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sassisch@yahoo.com>
>
Subject: Etymology

Dear Lowlanders,

I just found in my mailbox a bunch of responses to my question about *vaak*and
*faken* and other words for "often". Thank you very much. You'll find them
below.

Olaf Bordasch, who used to be a LL-Ler and still monitors our proceedings,
sent me to response privately:

Es gibt Adverbien, die sich aus dem Dativ eines Substantivs entwickelt
haben.

Das Wort "Vak" bedeutet manchmal soviel wie "Zeitraum". (Vgl. niederländisch
"tijdvak".)

Die ursprüngliche Bedeutung von "vaken" dürfte "über längere Zeit" bzw.
"wiederholt" sein.

Das kurze "a" wird im Dativ gedehnt. (Vgl. westfälisch: "Guën Dag", aber "an
düösen Dage".)

Literatur

Mittelniederdeutsche Grammatik von August Lübben S. 124
http://www.archive.org/stream/mittelniederdeu00lbgoog/mittelniederdeu00lbgoog_djvu.txt

Nederlands etymologisch woordenboek Von J. de Vries, F. de Tollenaere,
Maaike Hogenhout-Mulder, S. 760
http://books.google.com/books?id=9_X44k9-3j8C&pg=PP19&lpg=PP19&dq=nederlands+etymologisch+woordenboek&source=bl&ots=ZOR06Hsahj&sig=q8Fx9kbmQQNTq3rhKfEowxsCtZk&hl=de&ei=yuN-StanGo7Y-QbTqJFb&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3#v=onepage&q=vaak&f=false

In other (English) word, *vaak* and *faken* go back to an adverb that
developed from the dative form of a noun and in the process underwent vowel
lengthening. The noun group is represented by the noun **vak* 'interval', as
in Dutch *tijdvak* 'period of time'. Thanks, Olaf!

I should add to this that there is an Old English cognate (with umlauting):
*fæc* ~ *fec* 'interval of space or time'. In writing at least it seems to
have fizzled out after the 12th century. This word is related to German *
Fach* denoting anything relatively small that is separated or deliniated
(e.g. compartment, shelf, receptacle, ... > area of expertise, etc.). They
all go back to Indo-European **păk- ~ pāk- ~ păĝ- ~ pāĝ-* 'to bind', 'to
weave', 'to affix'. So I guess we are talking about creating fences again (a
preoccupation among Indo-Europeans, it seems).

However, Henno points out Middle German *gevach* 'in regular intervals'.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

----------

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.08.08 (01) [EN]

Ron, Re Vaak. This is interesting. It is maybe weird to say, but on several
occasions I have had the feeling that that was an odd word ( A student may
have asked about the etymology, I do not remember). Then on Aug 3rd, Roger
Thys gave references to Maurits Gijsseling who poses that there was a
pre-roman Germanic language that disappeared ttp://
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordwestblock

 I do not know in how far that idea holds water at all, but could it?
Jacqueline?

----------

From: JL <zeekyker at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.08.08 (01) [EN]


 Modern Dutch: /*vaak*//, *dikwijls*///
>

Zeeuws: dikkels

 Afrikaans: */dikwels/*
>

-- 
Met vriendelijke groet,
    Jaap Liek
http://zeekijker.googlepages.com

----------

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.08.08 (01) [EN]

To us southerners "vaak" is indeed exclusively northern Dutch. Nowadays most
standard or substandard/regiolect speakers in Belgium seem to have switched
to preferring "vaak" (I use it in Dutch too, only use dikkels in dialect),
but in dialect the only option is "dikwijls", here pronounced as "dikkels".
I remember from when I was younger that most people still wrote and said
dikwijls even in more formal contexts, but now 15y later "vaak" has become
dominant in Belgian standard Dutch too. At least that how it seems to me,
maybe of course Antwerp adapts such words faster than other parts of the
country.

Cheers, Diederik

----------

From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.08.08 (01) [EN]

Beste Ron en alle anderen,

Je vraagt je af of het Nederlandse woord "vaak" een Fries substraat zou
kunnen zijn.
Ter aanvulling:
In Vlaanderen  kennen we "vaak" van de school en de boeken. We gebruiken
evenwel "dikwijls".
In het West-Vlaams is dit dan: dikkels, dikkers.
"Mair of e ki" wordt ook gebruikt, d.i. meer dan één keer.

Voor de Zuid-Afrikaanse vrienden:
In West-Vlaanderen kennen we inderdaad de dubbele ontkenning.
Vergelijk Frans-West-Vlaams:
Je NE viens pas: 'k En komm nie".
Het zijn er drie in dit nu wat oubollige West-Vlaams: 'k EN haan da NIE
gepéjsd NIE wi: ik had dat zeker niet gedacht (= verwacht), weet je.
En ook:
't en is noojs gin woar: het zal toch wel niet waar zijn?!
noojs nie = nooit.
't zien ginne nie: het zijn er geen.
Hé je hém gezien té: heb je hem gezien, jij.
 En hé je hém nie gezien ténne: heb je hem niet gezien, jij niet.
Prof. Paardekoper maakte onlangs een zeer uitgebreide studie over dit
fenomeen.

Ostênsjhe groetsjes van 't zaitsje én toetnoasteki,
Oostendse groetjes van de zee en tot volgende keer.

Roland Desnerck
Watergangstraat 9
8420 De Haan

Oostende
West-Vlaanderen

----------

From: Henno Brandsma <hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.08.08 (01) [EN]

From: R. F. Hahn
<sassisch at yahoo.com<http://uk.mc264.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sassisch@yahoo.com>
>
Subject: Etymology

Dear Lowlanders,

I am wondering if Dutch *vaak* and Low Saxon *faken ~ vaken ~ faak ~
vaak*for 'often' have spread from Frisian substrata in these
languages.

Old English: *oft, oftrǽde, þiclīce*
Modern English: *often**, frequently*

Old German: *ofto, oftlīhho, dikki, dikko*
Modern German: *oft*,* **oftmals*
 Old Frisian: *faken, ofta, oftalik*

Modern W. Frisian: *faak, faken, fakentiden*

* *
Modern N. Frisian: *fäk*
Old Low Frankish: *thikko*

Middle Dutch:
*vaeken*
Modern Dutch: *vaak**, dikwijls*
 Afrikaans: *dikwels*
Limburgish: *dèk, dèks*

Old Saxon: *oft*,* **ofto*
Middle Saxon: *vake, vakene**, offten*

Modern Low Saxon: * faken ~ vaken ~ faak ~ vaak**, oftins, öftins*
* *
Gothic:* ufta
*
Old Norse: *opt*
Modern Icelandic: *oft, oftlega*
Modern Faroese: *ofta*
Dano-Norwegian: *ofte*
Modern Danish: *ofte*
Neo-Norwegian: *ofte**
*Modern Swedish: *ofta**
*
What might the etymology of the *faak** *group be? It seems to be specific
to the Frisian-Dutch-Saxon group.

The *thik* group (which may be etymologically related to the modern "thick"
group) seems to be specific to the Frankish group but is also represented in
Old English.

The *oft* group appears to be common to all but the Low Frankish group of
language varieties. It may well be etymologically connected with word groups
like "over" (thus "excessive(ly)") and German *üppig* 'abundant', 'ample',
'copious', 'profuse'.

Thanks in advance.

Reinhard/Ron
Seatt;e, USA

Neffens myn etymologyske wurdboeken, komt dit wurd fan "vak", yn'e tredde
fal iental. Sels Mhd. hat "gevach" foar "rigelmjittich, geregeldwei". De
âldste fynplakken wize yndie op Saksysk/Frysk as oarsprong. Yn it
Middelnederlânsk komt it benammen yn eastlike teksten foar en Kiliaen
skriuwt dat it "Holl. Fris. Sax. Sicamb." is (it âldste wurdboek; it
befettet oarsprongsoantsjuttings), dus Hollânsk, Frysk, Saksysk, Sieuwsk.
"vak" soe fan de romtlike betsjutting in betsjutting fan tiid krigen ha.
Noch altyd hat it Nederlânsk "tijdvak" foar "perioade". Ald Ingelsk hie ek
"fæc" foar tiidsperioade.
De tredde fal komt faker foar om in bywurd te foarmjen (fgl. "wijlen" út
"wijle").

Groetnis,

Henno Brandsma

•

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