LL-L "Syntax" 2009.02.02 (03) [E]

[Lowlands-L List]

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L O W L A N D S - L - 02 February 2009 - Volume 03
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From: LUCAS ANNEAR <annear at wisc.edu>
Subject: Idiomatica

Dear Lowlanders,

I have a question regarding a genitive construction.  In Norwegian it's
gradually becoming more acceptable to write constructions like:

- Per sin bil ligger der borte. 'Per his car lies over there.' 'Per's car is
over there.'

or

-Bilen min traff Kari sin bil. 'My car hit Kari his car.'  'My car hit Kar's
car.'

especially when it is part of the subject of the sentence, and so I hear.

I know that this construction exists in Frisian.  Unfortunately I can't
construct my own sentences (just trying to read is difficult enough!), so
I'll have to borrow one that I found on the web as an example. (found here:
http://netherlands.poetryinternationalweb.org/piw_cms/cms/cms_module/index.php?obj_id=4588
)

-Wylst it roet reinde út de himel syn skimerwolken.  Meaning: "While the
soot rained out the heaven (sky) his dusky clouds" in an, I think, literal
translation.

 To what extent is found in the other Lowlands (and Germanic) languages, and
is there an origin that is generally agreed upon?  I don't think that I've
seen it in Dutch, though I wouldn't be surprised at all if it's found.  I'm
wondering if it is borrowed into (at least) Norwegian (and more Scandinavian
languages?) since it seems to be stigmatized, perhaps because it's not
"native".  An answer, or direction to previous discussion would be very much
appreciated (the question had been sizzling in the back of my head for some
time now!)  Thank you all ahead of time.

Lucas Annear
Madison, Wisconsin (though currently Bø i Telemark, Norge)

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Syntax

Hi, Lucas!

This construction is very common in Low Saxon. In some dialects it is used
only where the owner is a living being, while in other dialects there is no
such restriction.

- Per sin bil ligger der borte. 'Per his car lies over there.' 'Per's car is
over there.'


Peter sien Auto steiht daar günt.
(Peter his car stands there yonder.)
Peter's car is over there.

-Bilen min traff Kari sin bil. 'My car hit Kari his car.' 'My car hit Kar's
car.'


Mien Auto hett Hanne ähr Auto anrasselt.
(My car has Hanne her car on-rattled.)
My car hit Hanne's car.

The other construction uses *vun ~ von ~ van* (from > of, by); e.g.

Dat Dack vun dat Schoolhuus brennt.
(The roof of the school house burns.)
The roof of the school building is on fire.

Den Dialekt vun Oslo kann in verstahn.
(The dialect of Oslo can I understand.)
I can understand the Oslo dialect.

Du bruukst de Ãœnnerschrift vun dien Vadder or Moder.
(You need the signature of your father or mother.)
You need one of your parents' signature.

As you probably know, Middle Saxon, the medieval ancestor of Low Saxon,
strongly influenced the Scandinavian languages because of close ties with
the Hanseatic Trading League. I can't say if the construction you talked
about is a result of this. Written Middle Saxon tended to use the
*van*construction as well as archaic genitive constructions that are
no longer
used. However, my strong hunch is that there used to be differences between
written and ordinarily spoken Middle Saxon (as one can tell by the use of
highfalutin expressions and longwinded sentences in writing). I would not be
surprised if the type of construction you are referring to was already in
common use at that time.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

•

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