LL-L "Syntax" 2009.02.04 (02) [E]

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L O W L A N D S - L - 04 February 2009 - Volume 01
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From: Paul Tatum <ptatum at blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2009.02.03 (01) [E]

From: Wesley Parish <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz <mailto:
wes.parish at paradise.net.nz>>
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2009.02.02 (03) [E]

FWIW, it is found in some early modern English dialects.  Unfortunately that
isn't one of my strong areas, so I can't say exactly which ones - though I
remember seeing it in a number of Elizabethan-era poems by Spencer et alii,
but FWIW, I have used it in a mock-serious way in English:


Hi Wesley and all,
In early Modern English this usage seems to have started as a literary
re-analysis of genitive phrases where the possessor was expressed by a word
that end in a sibilant e.g. 'King James' bible' was written 'King James his
bible'. From there, it spread so that you could write 'Queen Elizabeth her
crown'. As far as I'm aware, (i.e. not very far) it was only ever a literary
phenomenon, nobody said 'Queen Elizabeth her crown' when speaking naturally
and the usage quickly disappeared. Expressing the genitive this way with the
possessive pronoun occurs outside the Germanic language family, leafing
through 'The concise compendium of the world's languages' by George
Campbell, I found Akan, Navajo and Somali. Turkish uses a mixed construction
'adam.In kaslem.i' = 'of-man his-pencil' = 'the man's pencil' (.In is
genitive marker, .i is 3rd person possessive).

Paul Tatum


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From: E Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2009.02.03 (03) [A/E]

Hi all,

I'd also like to mention that possessive forms in Afrikaans do appear
without the 'se' contruction, as for example:
Die sakelys punte onder bespreking (...sakelys se punte..., i.e. E. agenda
items),
Die kar wiele is pap (...kar se wiele...),

Is this perhaps a slow move towards vernaamwoording? Karwiele, sakelyspunte,

honde-ore, katspoeg, tafelpoot, etc.

Groete,
Elsie Zinsser


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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2009.02.03 (01) [E]

Right, in colloquial spoken Dutch the construction with "zijn" is
universal.
The friends of our sons, when talking to us, call my wife and me: "Arvid
zijn mamma" or "Imme zijn vader".
Actually, this "zijn" is always pronounced with a schwa, z'n [z at n] and
often even final n is dropped "ze" [z@]. Just the same as Afrikaans "se".
We don't have daughters, but when we were kids, my sisters' friends called
our parents "Nadine z'n moeder" or "Saskia z'n vader", so this z'n (his)
can also be used for women. But adults would say "Saskia d'r auto"
or "Nadine d'r man", where d'r [d at r] is colloquial spoken Dutch for "haar"
her.

Groetjes van Imme en Arvid z'n vader  (Ingmar)

From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2009.02.02 (05) [E]

> From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Syntax"

[...]

> Referring to a Norwegian genitive construction you wrote:
>

[...]

> The same construction is not only very common in

> Brabantish,  [...]

Hi,

I would say, it is rather common in dutch, although you would hardly find
it
in written dutch, and neither in elevated spoken dutch.
In grammar school in Amsterdam I was told that this construction was no
dutch.
[And as the only lower class boy in school there were a lot more
constructions they make me change; even 'tram' I had now to pronounce as an
english word. Funny people, those higher class people.]

vr.gr.
Theo Homan


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From: clarkedavid8 at aol.com
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2009.02.02 (03) [E

 From: LUCAS ANNEAR <annear at wisc.edu>
Subject: Idiomatica

Dear Lowlanders,

I have a question regarding a genitive construction.  In Norwegian it's
gradually becoming more acceptable to write constructions like:

- Per sin bil ligger der borte. 'Per his car lies over there.' 'Per's car
is
over there.'

The construction you refer to is found in 17th century written English:
"Samuel Pepys his diary". I dont know where it came from, when it started
or
why it disappeared from English. Perhaps a Netherlandish influence from
Dutch/Flemish dyke-builders and court painters? I thought it was a feature
of standard Dutch.

David Clarke

----------

From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2009.02.02 (03) [E]

The possessive construction  found in Low Saxon 'Peter sien Auto',
Afrikaans, 'vader se skoene', Norwegian 'Per sin bil', etc is also the
standard way of expressing attributive possession in Indian Sign Language:
WOMAN INDEX-3 3-OWN WOMAN CHILD ' the/that woman's daughter'. (American Sign
language also has this construction, but THERE there is a bit of flexibility
in word order as to which, possessor or possessee comes beofre and after the
sign POSSESS).


Mike || マイク || माईक || Мика || માઈક || მაიქ || ਮਾਈਕ
מייק || மாஇக் || Miqueu || U C > || ما یک || Mihangel
================
Dr Michael W Morgan
Ishara Foundation || ईशारा फॉउंडेशन  || イシャラ基金
Mumbai/Bombay *|* मुंबई *|* ムンバイ/ボンベイ (インド)
www.ishara.org
+++++++++++++++
Kësê zïmanê xwë wïndakê, wïndayë.  (Kirmanji Proverb: 'Whoever loses his
language is lost.')

•

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