LL-L "History" 2009.02.26 (03) [E]

[Lowlands-L List]

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L O W L A N D S - L - 26 February 2009 - Volume 03
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.02.26 (01) [E]


A bit like zoology: splitters v. lumpers.  Also raises some quandries for an
outsider.  Should I speak my very poor Swedish, or make an even worse
attempt at Gutnish? Though based on my experience of anywhere north of the
Kiel Canal, they'll answer in English anyway.



Paul


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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: History


“Lumpers” definitely, Paul, but “splitters” not necessarily, not when seen
from their angle.

Swedish, like Danish, is of the East Scandinavian type. Indigenous Norwegian
dialects are of the West Scandinavian type, as are Jamtlandic dialects.
Sweden took Jamtland from Norway and then said that the local indigenous
dialects were Swedish. Many Jamtlanders never accepted that. So it’s not a
matter of splitting but a matter of not accepting the lumping.

Similarly, original Scanian dialects share far more with Danish than with
Swedish. In fact, Scania had been a Danish province for quite a few
centuries but came to be taken by Sweden (1719) which then proclaimed that
the dialects were Swedish. Scanian “hard-liners” never accepted that. So,
again it’s not accepting the “lumping.”

The status of Elfdalian as a Swedish dialect group versus a separate
language has been debated for quite some time. It is structurally and
lexically quite unlike general Swedish and is therefore seen as a separate
language by many that use scientific criteria rather than nationalistic
criteria.

In 1999, Sweden accepted Finnish, Romani, Sami, Tornedal Finnish (Meänkieli)
and Yiddish as minority languages. However, when it comes to North Germanic
language varieties within Sweden the “lumping” principle still applies.

I most definitely don't have it out for Sweden, lovely country that it is. I
am merely trying to remind you and others that positive labeling on whatever
grounds is still labeling, simplification, lumping. No country has a "clean
record" just because it established a more or less positive international
image in the recent past. If you were able to talk with the mixed Germanic-
and Slavic-rooted population of the Baltic south coast of the Thirty Year
War era (1618–1648) they would be quick to let you know that “Swede” is
synonymous with “bogeyman” because of the way they were treated.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "History"


Beste Paul,



You wrote:

*
How times change! I bet modern Swedes would be a bit taken aback at being
seen as a rapacious threat!*



Mmm, not sure that the Slavic world would agree.



Yes, modern Sweden has been some sort of model for a few countries during
the last few decades (not only for the US), but history didn't start at the
end of WW II I'm afraid.



It's still a matter of dispute among Slavists as to how important for
example the Varangians (from Sweden and further afield) were during the
creation of Russia, but I think it's accepted that trade along the Volga (as
far as the Caspian Sea) was largely in hands of Scandinavians. Kiev (capital
of Ukraine) was founded by some kind of Scandinavian warrior-elite. Whether
these Scandinavians were rather adventurers, merchants or pirates...or a bit
of everything: hard to tell I guess.



Kind greetings,



Luc Hellinckx, Halle

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