LL-L "Etymology" 2009.01.05 (05) [E]

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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.01.05 (03) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>



Subject: Etymology

Thanks for the compliments, Marlou and Mark. /You guys ...!/ (he says
blushing)

Seriously, here's the continuation of word sleuthing and some homework for
all you etymologists at all levels.

I wrote:

/Tüdelkram/ is a Missingsch and (from derived from it) casual Northern
German word for something like "nonsense", but not necessarily with such a
harsh sound, more in the sense of "convoluted stuff", which is pretty much
the literal translation.

It is based on Low Saxon /Tütelkraam/ (/tuytelkraam/). In other dialects it
is /Tüterkraam/ (/tuyterkraam/). (You can also write it with a "d" instead
of a "t", but that's a different matter to be taken up elsewhere.) This in
turn is based on /Tüter/ (/tuyter/) 'string', 'cord', 'thread', 'yarn',
'rope', anything that can be rolled up. More specifically it means
'messed-up (convoluted) ball of yarn, rool of rope, etc.' Hence the
expression /in de(n) Tüter kamen/ 'to get mixed up', 'to get confused' (both
referring to a string etc. and the person that does the rolling up). It's
extension is /Tüterband/ (/tuyterband/) ~ /Tütelband/ (/tuytelband/)
'string' (often specifically a piece of string with which to make figures in
a game).

Derived from it is the verb /tütern/ (/tuytern/) ~ /tüteln/ (/tuyteln/) 'to
bind', 'to string up', 'to talk nonsense', 'to work slowly and
inefficiently'. Derived from this is the adjective/adverb /tüterig/
(/tuyterig/) 'confused', 'potty' (in the non-American sense).

Now we ought to try to identify the root and its possible meaning.

Remember what I often say about frequentive suffixes in verbs? They are
/-r-/ for habitual action (/tüüt-r- -> tütern/) and /-l-/ for "small"
repetitive action (/tüüt-l- -> tüteln/). This makes the root */tüüt-/. I go
out on a limb and say that it once was */tuut- /later to be umlauted under
the influence of a following high vowel.

The noun /Tüter/ 'string', 'cord', 'thread', 'yarn', 'rope' seems somewhat
odd we mostly recognize /-er/ because the deverbal nominal suffix as marking
a (habitual) doer, such as "baker", "liar" and "singer", which is the same
in Low Saxon. But it is not impossible that /Tüter/ was derived from the
verb /tütern/.

At any rate, it looks to be that we are left with the root */tüüt- <
/*/tuut-/.

There are two Modern Low Saxon nouns /Tüüt/ that I can think of, and neither
appears to be related to the above:

/Tüüt ~ Tütt/ 'certain types of snipe' (/calidrid/, '/charadriida/')

/Tüüt ~ Tuut/ (< /Tüte/ ~ /Tute/ > German /Tüte/) 'paper-bag'

Paper bags were originally cone-shaped, pointed and were made by vendors
before filling them (in times before they came to be glued), hence the Low
Saxon "nickname" /Tütendreier/ (/tuytendrayer/) "paper-bag turner" for a
grocery shop keeper or market vendor. While "turning" is involved here, I do
not think this is related to /Tüter/ and /tütern/ ~ /tüteln/. Much rather, I
assume we are dealing with the verb /tuten/ (/tuut-/) 'to toot'. The paper
cones suggest trumpets, and children did indeed make play trumpets in the
same manner.

So what /is/ the root */tüüt- < /*/tuut- /from which words related to
rolling up, threading and weaving are derived? So far I have not been able
to make a connection from it to words in older Germanic languages.

So there's your homework.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron


According to Grimm the words are not related. "tüdern" is from "tüder" (kind
of peg to fasten cattle on the meadows). "tüder" is related to English
"tether". "tüdeln" according to the Grimm entry "tudeln" could be related to
German "zotteln" and originally meant something like 'to tousle' (still
present in "betüdeln" for example). Both words have an etymological 'd'. The
semantic similarities (Tüderbüdel~Tüdelbüdel) are not original and a product
of contamination. "tünen" according to Grimm is from "tuun" (fence) and is
based on a similar semantic shift like "spinnen" (to spin [textiles] - to be
bonkers).

Marcus Buck

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, Marcus!

Aha! So there is a /d/ there after all, derived from /ð/!

It goes back to Indo-European **deu-* "to fasten" + instrumentive suffix **
-tro-* > Germanic **teudran* >

Old Frisian *tiader*
Middle Dutch *tuder* > Modern Dutch *tuier*
Old Norse *tjoðr* > Swedish *tjuder*, Danish *tøjr*

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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