LL-L "Language programming" 2009.01.15 (01) [E]

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L O W L A N D S - L - 15 January 2009 - Volume 01
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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language programming" 2009.01.14 (06) [E]

Dear Sandy:



Subject: LL-L "Language programming"



With reguard to your objection  on  'Formatting' closing so: "So the idea of
language formatting the mind


would mean that when a new, unused brain is set up by the languages it

learns to receive data in a a particular way... " Exactly!

You say: "Programming is writing a set of instructions to make a computer
system


behave in a particular way. So to say that language programs the mind is
to say that a psychotic killer behaves in this way because of the

languages he has learned?"



Mark:

So what's wrong with this thesis? It might not be the only way to make a
psychotic killer but it certainly works. I'm a soldier. I know. I forget who
called Myth a disease of Language (that really stuck in Tolkien's throat)
but consider. If I send 'A' a poison-pen letter that 'B' is coming to kill
him, & so drive A to pre-emptively take out B, my weapon is not a rifle
but the letter, the language the medium of my methodology, the murderer
merely my hapless tool.

    The Jesuits say, "Give us a child until he is eight, & he will be ours
forever." George Orwell in his SF novel '1984' told of language tailored to
manipulate action (Newspeak). He might not have been a linguist but he has a
point there. When in any given language any given target-group is inevitably
associated with a corpus of hateful, malign, scabrous or at the very least
negative terminology & metaphor like 'deviant', 'criminal' or 'primitive' or
'barbaic' & such-like, that is learned with the language & becomes part of
the culture it serves.

    & if the target-group is simply foreign, physically disabled,
homosexual, Jewish, Black or White, no guessing the consequences. I do not
refer only to Nazis. People who guard language against misuse & protect the
young from abuse know this very well, & if they cannot practice censorship
they resort to 'politically correct' language (which I hate).



Sandy, The brain *does* work *something* like a computer. it processes data.


Nevertheless, you are dead right to point out that  a mother-duck or cat
knows if one of her offspring is missing. This isn't evidence of a duck or a
cat having a sense of number. It is evidence of a sense of recognition. In
the same way you miss an invited guest at a cocktail-party because you don't
see his face. it isn't necessary or to the point to count the other guests.

Yrs,

Mark


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From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language programming" 2009.01.14 (06) [E]

Sandy (an sinry ithers),


> I've tried watching signers signing the soaps, the children's programmes

> and the news, and my impression that it's mainly those interpreting the

> children's programmes that are clear.

One of the BEST things about Japan (I am told I don't OFTEN comment on the
positives) is that they ALSO have sign langauge news delivered by native
signers.



And EVEN BETTER: the CHILDREN'S news (once a week fro 20 minutes), delivered
by a native signer.



... And in fairness to the TV sign language interpreters, i have had more
than one Deaf friend (in the Osaka-Kobe area of Western japan) tell me that
they had an even HARDER time following one of the Deaf news casters (also a
friend of mine, but living many years in Tokyo, Eastern Japan ... though
originally from Yamaguchi, west of Hiroshima). As Sandy says, it MIGHT be
dialect and fast dialect at that, but it is also the vocabulary
("higher-educated" deaf vs "average" deaf) ... not knowing (really) what the
diff is between and NGO and an NPO, fro example.


> presumably interpreting narrative like "maka paka", "pinky ponk" and
> "upsy daisy doo" is just too much of a challenge!



Ah, but if the Russians can interpret into BEAUTIFULLY appropriate Russian,
then why can't the interpretters? Nabokov's translation of "Alice" is EVEN
better than the (wonderful) original! "Mock Turtle" become "cherepuxa" (a
play on cherepaxa 'turtle' and chepuxa 'nonsense'), etc etc etc ... Well,
Russian translators of books do anyway (the interpretting and dubbing of
movies i have always found mediocre sicne the old days). But then, maybe
that is because the translators have often been writers themselves ... PLUS
translators have typically been more RESPECTED there, which contributes to
professionalism I think.

> (Sorry, i am DEFINITELY NOT a believer in nominalism!

But that's only because Shakespeare programmed your brain when he said a
rose would smell as sweet by any other name  :)

Yes, but then Pasternak REPROGRAMMED my brain by producing wonderful
(snogshibatel'nye, to use my all-time favorite word) translations of
Shakespeare  :-))



a rose is a rose is a rose ... and I am allergic to them ALL!


Mike || マイク || माईक || Мика || માઈક || მაიქ || ਮਾਈਕ
מייק || மாஇக் || Miqueu || U C > || ما یک || Mihangel
================
Dr Michael W Morgan
Ishara Foundation || ईशारा फॉउंडेशन  || イシャラ基金
Mumbai/Bombay *|* मुंबई *|* ムンバイ/ボンベイ (インド)
www.ishara.org
+++++++++++++++
Одной рукой не поднять двух арбузов
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