LL-L "Grammar" 2009.05.27 (02) [EN]

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L O W L A N D S - L - 27 May 2009 - Volume 02
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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.05.27 (01) [EN]

Ron asked about:
The guy is *broke*.
*The *broke* guy (?) This doesn’t sound incorrect to me.

(*)The air conditioner is *broke*.  Neither this one.
The air conditioner is *broken*.

*The *broke* air conditioner (?)  Ok
The *broken* air conditioner

Similarly:

The sailor is *drunk*.
*The sailor is *drunken*. (?)

*What shall we do with the *drunk* sailor? (?) Ok.
What shall we do with the *drunken* sailor?

I admit that I wouldn’t expect to hear “The broke air conditioner” from
someone minding his Ps and Qs, but it sounds okay to me (as well as the
other examples), and I might even use them myself when trying to sound “down
home” with family and such.

Mark Brooks
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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
 Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.05.27 (01) [EN]

Re broke/broken, sunk/sunken etc.

Hi Ron, You know I am not a linguist, but an interested bystander at best…..
But, look at the verbs from which these “Adjective Pairs” are derived. They
are all strong and I assume that English has inherited them at a time when
the Past Participles of these verbs were still ending in -en. The Adjectives
were made from their respective Past Participles and ended in -en too. Then
when English decided to do away with the –en at the end of the verbs some
people may have thought that the adjectives should be altered too. I have
read “ope” somewhere which was supposed to mean open too, but to open is not
a strong verb.  So I shoot myself in the foot again.

The question then also becomes if Brokeback Mountain,  means that that
particular mountain was eroded and had lost some of its ridges. Groetjes,

Jacqueline

Seattle WA
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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
 Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.05.27 (01) [EN]

>From Heather Rendall

heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

Reinhard/Ron gave this an example

The sailor is *drunk*.
*The sailor is *drunken*. (?)
*What shall we do with the *drunk* sailor? (?)
What shall we do with the *drunken* sailor?

I think the old sea shanty " What shall we do with the drunken sailor..
early in the morning" is playing a part here. Because without its influence
we wouldn't even be considering 'drunken' as being in current use.

You wouldn't say " The drunken man staggered into the road" instead " The
drunk man staggered into the road" or even just " The drunk staggered into
the road" where it is understood that a man is meant (!).

Which leaves us being able to say "What shall we do with the drunk sailor?"
as opposed to the sober one.

Any ( most?) past participle can be used as an adjective

"a half-eaten hamburger"

" the burnt toast"

" the written word"

 But Simple Pasts cannot be used like this: so you can't say

the wrote word / the half-ate hamburger

With broke and broken - I think dialect use of broke is at play this time.

"If it ain't broke, don't mend it" where clearly in RP English a past
participle would be required instead " If it isn't broken ...etc"

according to OED..... The original Simple Past was 'brake' and became
'broke' through the influence of the Past participle 'broken'

"broke" meaning out of money is 1st attested in the 18th  and the OED has it
as a variant of 'broken' i.e. treats it as a 2nd version of the past
participle...... which would make " If it ain't broke, ....." perfectly
acceptable historically!!!

But in our grammatical mind I am sure we treat it as NOT being a PP
otherwise it would be acceptable to say " A broke man" which we don't!

best wishes

Heather
Worcester UK

•

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