LL-L "Etymology" 2009.11.29 (01) [DE-EN]

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L O W L A N D S - L - 29 November 2009 - Volume 01
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From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Dear Lowlanners,

*(deutsche Zusammenfassung s.u.)*

today I came across a, for me really *very* interesting, question:

How did the word E 'church' with all its related varieties like DE 'Kirche',
NL 'Kerk', LS 'Kaark'... etc. reach the Germanic languages?
Its roots are definitely from *Greece* *'κυριακον'* (as a precaution - in
Latin letters *'kyriakon'*), but our western christian religion is based on
*Roman* catholizism!! So it actually should have had become a descendant of
*'ecclesia'*, as it is used in the Romanic/Celtic countries, e.g
French 'èglise', Spanish 'iglesia' etc..

According to my investigations these various derivates of *'κυριακον'* have
already been in use since/during the first steps to missionate Germanic
folks, on the continent as well as on the British islands. Why else didn't
the early, dominating Celtic, missionaries spread the *Romanic* version of
'God's own house'? Obviously they couldn't, because there already and
everywhere in the Germanic languages existed *another* word - namely the
different forms of *'κυριακον'*!

Or are all my etymological sources on the wrong path? Isn't it perhaps
*not*from Greece, but much older, maybe Indo-European, and so it could
reach the
Germanic languages on the direct way?

Even the authors of GRIMM, who themselves made some thoughts and
investigations on this phenomenon, are unable to give a really substantiated
explanation - except of some vague hints on Gothic influence.
http://germazope.uni-trier.de/Projects/WBB/woerterbuecher/dwb/wbgui?lemid=GA00001
 (insert the lemma 'kirche')

HARPER in contrast clearly means that the Goths brought it with them. But
that would bring up the question, what the pre-christian Germanics should
need such a 'technical term' for?! Besides that the beginning of
Christianity in southern Germania started in the 2nd century AD - that was *
before* the Goths arrived.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=autobahn&searchmode=none

Any ideas and theories world-wide?

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Deutsche Zusammenfassung:

Heute stieß ich auf einen für mich wirklich *sehr* interessanten
Zusammenhang:

Wie gelangte das dt. Wort 'Kirche' mit all seinen verwandten Formen, wie
Engl. "church', NL 'kerke', LS 'Kaark' etc. in die germanischen Sprachen?
Die Wurzeln liegen eindeutig im *griechischen* Wort *'**κυριακον**'* (zur
Sicherheit in lat. Buchstaben *'kyriakon'*), aber unser westl. Christentum
basiert doch auf der *Röm.-Kathol.* Kirche! So hätte es doch eigentlich eine
Ableitung von *'ecclesia'* werden müssen, wie in den romanisch/keltischen
Sprachen, z.B. Franz. 'èglise', Spanisch 'iglesia' usw..

Nach meiner Recherche waren diese versch. Ableitungen von
*'κυριακον'*bereits im Germanentum verankert, als die ersten
Missionierungen stattfanden
- sowohl auf dem Festland als auch auf den brit. Inseln. Warum auch sonst
hätten die frühen, vornehmlich keltischen, Missionare nicht ihr eigenes,
roman. Wort für 'Gotteshaus' verbreiten sollen? Weil ebendiese versch.
Formen von  *'κυριακον'* bereits *vorher* und überall existierten!

Oder sind hier vielleicht all' meine etymologischen Quellen auf dem Holzweg?
Das Wort stammt gar nicht aus dem Griechischen, sondern ist viel älter,
vielleicht Indogermanisch, und somit ohne Umwege ins Germanische gelangt?

Auch GRIMM hilft hier nicht weiter - außer einigen sehr vagen Hinweisen auf
möglicherweise gotische Einflüsse haben sie nicht viel zu bieten.
HARPER dagegen ist ganz eindeutig der Meinung, die Goten hätten es
mitgebracht; stellt sich nur die Frage, was die Germanen in vorchristlicher
Zeit mit einem solchen 'Terminus technicus' anfangen sollten?!
Außerdem reichen die Anfänge des Christentums im südl. Germanien zurück bis
ins 2. Jahrhundert n.Ch., also in eine Zeit *vor* den Goten.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm
Lower Saxony, Germany

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.11.23 (03) [EN]

Hi, it's been a while since I visited this beautiful site...

About the stress in Altena, I want to point out that in the Dutch
toponym "Alteveer" (lit: "all too far" in Older Dutch, Modern Standard
Dutch "al te ver" with one short E and VER has stress) the first syllable
also bears stress. Btw "al te na" is Dutch too, meaning "all too close",
especially in fixed expressions like "je komt me al te na" = "you're coming
very much too close to me"

Ingmar

From: R. F. Hahn <[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">[log in to unmask]com>
 Subject: Resources

This reminds me of what I assume is folk etymology of the name of the city
(now a part of Hamburg) of Altona in Germany.

Founded as a fishing village in 1535, Altona was given city rights by
Denmark's King Frederik III in 1664. It played an important role as a
Danish city that could be reached from Hamburg's city walls by just a
short. Altona used to house a major Jewish community. Because Hamburg
severely restricted the number of resident Jews until 1864 (with one break:
1811-1815), most Jews lived in Altona and worked in Hamburg which was
sometimes independent and sometimes under Prussian power.

Anyway, I have heard stories about a child or a blind person having to mark
the town's border, or Hamburg's border, or someone was to do so by throwing
something or other, and then the Low Saxon reaction was "Al to nah!" ("All
too near!"). Or was it that people used to say that Altona was "Al to nah"
from Hamburg?

Main stress is on the first syllable of the name, by the way, unlike all
those American places called Altona and Altoona that are stressed on the
second syllable. The phrase "Al to nah" has stress on the last syllable.

Anyway, does anyone know anything about these etymological theories and
what seems to be the true one?

I have also heard that the city may have been named after a brook called
Altenau (Alten-au), which would pan out stress-wise. Also, there is an
Altona Manor in Eldena, near Ludwigslust in Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania.
Altona and Eldena may well be related names.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

•

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