LL-L "Etymology" 2009.10.19 (08) [DE-EN]

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L O W L A N D S - L - 19 October 2009 - Volume 08
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From: "Joachim Kreimer-de Fries" <soz-red at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.10.01 (01) [EN]

 It seems to me that the word "if" evolved within English. Shakespeare
> seems to have used "and" quite a lot where we would now use "if" (Burns
> uses it when writing reported, as opposed to literary, Scots too), while
> "if" seems to have evolved from "given that" > "gif" > "if".
>
«
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>:
 »

> I always assumed that "if" was a Germanic word, and the *Oxford English
> Dictionary* seems to agree … …
>
«

Hey, Sandy, Reinhard & others,

I think you are right assuming an germanic/saxon root of engl. »if«, but
Sandy's hypothesis of derival from "given that" > "gif" might be
exaggerated. In Lübben's "Mittelniederdeutsches Handwörterbuch" I found the
following items:

------------------------------
--------------
ef (of, af, if), conj. wenn; als ob. {more or less = engl. 'if' - jo}

icht, ichte == ift, 1. wenn, ob. 2. oder. {if, wether, or -jo}

jof == of (ef, if), oder; wenn, ob. {if, wether - jo}

{and - under the item}
val, m. (u. n.?) Fall, Sturz; fig. Verderben, …
{there is also:}
im fal ift, falls       {in case, if -jo}

efte (ofte, afte, ifte), conj. oder; efte--efte,
entweder--oder; weder(wêr)--ofte,
weder--noch; wenn; als ob, als
wenn; wenn doch, ob vielleicht. {as if, if though, wether perhaps -jo}

of (oft, ofte, ochte, af, afte, ef, efte, ifte),
1. conj. wenn, sofern, falls; in indir.
Frage: ob; als ob. 2. adv. oder;
of -- of, sive -- sive.                          {=> 1. conj. … = if, in
case that -jk}

Conclusion:

==> »if, ifte« in MiddleSaxon could be used in the same sense as modern
engl. »if«!

Reinhard:

> Modern Low Saxon has *of*, in some dialects *ob*.
>
> In German and Low Saxon you can use it in the sense of for instance "I
> don't
> know *if* this is enough." You can not use it in the sense of for instance
> "I'll get sick *if** *I eat hazelnuts," in which case you'd use *wenn* (or
> *
> falls* in elevated German).
>

So it is, unfortunately, »ef, if, ifte« got lost. But you could easily
reintroduce »if, ifte« in LS just

=>using it.

Given the ken/knowledge of English nowadays in North-German population,
almost everyone would understand it.

Goutgaun!
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries
Osnabrügge => Berlin-Pankow

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, Joachim!

By the way, I wrote:

In German and Low Saxon you can use it in the sense of for instance "I don't
know *if* this is enough." You can not use it in the sense of for instance
"I'll get sick *if* I eat hazelnuts," in which case you'd use *wenn *(or *
falls* in elevated German).

I should have made it simpler by stating that the first usage is that of
"whether".

As for the conditional, if can be expressed with *wenn* ('when', 'if'), as I
said. In traditional Low Saxon and in many non-standard German dialects
(also in archaic style) it can be expressed by means of metathesizing the
usual sequence [[noun][verb]] to [[verb][noun]], the result usually being
marked by *denn* ('then'); e.g.

Low Saxon: Ik äät Hasselnœt. Ik ward’ süük.
German: Ich esse Haselnüsse. Ich werde krank.
"I eat hazelnuts. I get sick."

1
Low Saxon: Wenn ik Hasselnœt äät (~ äten do), (denn) ward’ ik süük.
German: Wenn ich Haselnüsse esse,  (dann) werde ich krank.
[When/if I hazelnuts eat (~ eat do), (then) become I sick.]
"When/if I eat hazelnuts I get sick."

2
Low Saxon: Äät ik Hasselnœt, (denn) ward’ ik süük.
German: Esse ich Haselnüsse,  (dann) werde ich krank.
[Eat I hazelnuts, (then) become I sick.]
"When/if I eat hazelnuts I get sick."

Both of these are somewhat ambiguous in that they can be construed as either
"if ..." or "when(ever) ...". In Low Saxon you would have to say something
like *elkmal wenn* ... ("each time (when)") or *jümmers** wenn* ... ("always
when") and in German *jedesmal  wenn** ...* ("each time (when)"), *immer
wenn** ...* ("each time (when)") or, somewhat elevated, *wenn immer ...* to
clarify  regular results.

Distinction between "if" and "when" in English and *gin* and *whan* in Scots
certainly avoids such ambiguities.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

•

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