LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.10.20 (01) [EN]

Tue Oct 20 18:16:07 UTC 2009

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L O W L A N D S - L - 20 October 2009 - Volume 01
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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.10.19 (01) [EN]

From: Paul Tatum <ptatum at blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.10.18 (03) [EN]

Ã‚ Hello,

 From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be
>

 What about Icelandic v/ Old Norse?
> Regards,
> Roger
>
There has been some linguistic evolution in Icelandic, mainly in the vowel
system. There have also been several syntactic changes, so I don't think
Icelandic is quite as conservative as it appears when you see a page of noun
and verb paradigms. Ã‚ The main Old Norse saga literature dates to the 13th
to 14th centuries, and is rather 'Middle' in date for an 'Old' language,
which makes Old Norse itself seem rather conservative with respect to
Primitive Norse.

Paul Tatum.

Hi,

The Icelandic of the last 100 years or so  resembles old-icelandic in many
aspects much more than it ever did the 1000 years before.

vr.gr.
Theo Homan

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.10.19 (03) [EN]

From: Sandy Fleming
<sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk<http://uk.mc264.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sandy@fleimin.demon.co.uk><mailto:
sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk<http://uk.mc264.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sandy@fleimin.demon.co.uk>
>>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.10.16 (03) [EN]

Anyway, a question that I'm interested in seems to be going unanswered
here, and that is, do languages change even if there isn't contact with
other languages? A small island with only a few dialects of one language
and no outside contact would be hard to find these days, but such was
less unusual in the past, so would these languages still have kept
changing, and in what ways?

 My expectation would be that such change would be inevitable; in fact in
Papua New Guinea part of the extreme differences seen between geographically
close languages is commonly attributed to isolation.

Particularly over most of human history, where there has been no written
language to reinfoce past usage, sound would naturally drift. It is
noteworthy that Icelandic, often held up as an example of change resistance,
developed in what for many centuries was the world's most literate society.

Vowels are probably the first to change because the tongue and lips have no
fixed reference points and they mutate forwards and backwards, round or open
imperceptibly over the generations.

Consonants are a bit more stable, but they will drift into neighbouring
forms; "m" might lose its nasality, moving towards "b", then lose its voice
to become "p"; the upper teeth start to catch the lower lip and before long
it's become "f" etc.  It's not hard to imagine a hypothetical word "fampaka"
(I made that up) becoming something like "b'bfa'a" in quite a short period
of time. Lose the double consonant and double vowel and drift the vowels a
bit more and the resulting "ibva" seems to bear no relation to it's forbear.

That's the "background drift" if you like.  Then you get special events:
Somebody powerful or influential simply can't pronounce a trilled "r" and
youngsters start to imitate him, and a significant sound shift can occur in
a generation or two.

All this can happen without any recourse to invaders, traders, immigrants or
other alien influence.

 Paul Derby England

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Paul, Sandy, Lowlanders,

You may remember my attempt at using Polynesian languages as examples of
language change in isolation. I should add to it that this case is also one
in which such change is pretty easily observable and in which the vast
distances between islands add what I feel is compelling evidence. (The same
can be said about cultural divergence, by the way.) In fact, precolonial
Polynesian studies I can think of no better example to use in studying
language (and culture) change with little or no interference, in the absence
of written records and in the absence of written languages that would have
been likely to have interfered with (such as impeded)  the developments of
the individual languages. It seems like a wonderful and "clean" sample in
which to reconstruct a proto-language solely on the basis of surviving
language varieties scattered over a vast ocean area. (I promised the Kahuna
to add this remark - http://lowlands-l.net/treasures/kahuna.htm)

Paul, I think the drift you are talking about is precisely what you are
dealing with in the case of Polynesian. So I encourage you to spend some
time familiarizing yourself with this case.

Examples: woman/female, man/male, gardenia, canoe, parent, gray-haired,
mullet
Tongan: fafine, taÅ‹ata, siale, vaka, matu'a, hina, kanahe
Samoan: fafine, taÅ‹ata, tiale, va'a, matua, sina, 'anae
Niuean: fifine, taÅ‹ata, tiale, vaka, matua, hina, kanahe
Rapa Nui*: hahine, taÅ‹ata, tiare, vaka, matu'a, hina, -
Tahitian: vahine, ta'ata, tiare, va'a, metua, hinahina, 'anae
Rarotongan: vaÊ»ine, taÅ‹ata, tiare, vaka, matua ~ metua, 'ina, kanae
Maori: wahine, taÅ‹ata, tÄ«are, vaka, matua, hina, kanae
Hawaiian**: wahine, kanaka, kiele, wa'a, makua, hina, 'anae
Proto-Polynesian: *fafine, *taÅ‹ata, *tiale, *waka, *matu'a, *sina, *kanahe

* Easter Island
** Hawaiian *w* is actuall [Ê‹], the same sound as represented by *w* in
Dutch**.

And there are many more language varieties to cite in exhaustive
comparisons.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

•

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