LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.08.11 (02) [DE-EN-NDS]

Wed Aug 11 17:27:51 UTC 2010

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*L O W L A N D S - L - 11 August 2010 - Volume 02
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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>

Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.08.10 (06) [EN]

Luc, I can confirm your suspicions about the West-Vlaams-Low Saxon
connections with a nice little story which I was to observe many years ago
when I traveled with my mother, a truly Holsteener Deern from Nienborstel,
just south of Rendsborg in Sleswick-Holsten, for a trip to Brugge.

While walking through the beautiful mediaeval city my mother started more
and more listening to what the locals were saying to each other and found
that a lot of what they said she understood, and she understood a great deal
more than e.g. in Amsterdam. Eventually, she went into a shop and decided to
simply speak our local Low Saxon dialect to the shop keeper, telling him "ik
heff min voet wundlopen un bruk een plaaster (ik hef min veut woendlopen on
broek een ploaster)" and the shop keeper immediately understood showing her
different patches, she chose the one she wanted, he told her the price and
there was never a misunderstanding. I, as a child, was quite surprised that
far away from home we could speak our local Low Saxon dialect while in many
places in between nobody had understood us and some would look down to us as
backward peasants, in particular since Low Saxon knowledge has disappeared
from most Northern German towns.

I have no doubt that there is a connection, even some place-names appear
similar because there is a small village near Bordesholm in the Rendsborg
district which is also called Brugge (although in German spelling with the
Umlaut). Heist (Knokke-Heist) is another example, which also exists in
Holsten. Perhaps it would be interesting to investigate whether even more
place-names share similarities.

Groeten,
Helge

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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.08.10 (04) [DE-NL]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Do you think there is a possibility of Western Flemish and Zealandic being
influenced by Saxon? There has been talk of Saxons, who began haunting the
Continental and British North Sea coasts well before settling in Britain,
settled on the coasts of what are now Belgium and adjacent parts of the
Southern Netherlands and Northern France.

Of course, this common *-n* thing in Western Flemish, Zealandic and Saxon
could very be coincidence. But there are other common features, such as
/peird/ *peyrd* (vs Hollandic *paard*) for ‘horse’.

Perhaps there are influences but I don't think this is one of them. '-en' is
the original form and '-e' the innovation. So '-en' in Western Flemish,
Zealandic and Saxon is just a common lack of innovation.

'peerd' vs. 'paard' is the same. 'ee' is the more original form and 'aa' is
a Hollandic innovation. One could think that 'paard' is a reflection of the
Latin source 'paravederus' which has 'a', but with forms like 'waard' and
'haard' which clearly never had an 'a' historically the more logical
explanation is that 'paard' is from an earlier Dutch word 'peerd' (which
indeed is attested in older Dutch). The Western Flemish/Saxon similarities
are again just common lack of innovation.

Marcus Buck

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From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>

Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.08.10 (05) [NL]

Ick mell mi hier ok noch tau Wuurd,

in Mäkelborg sünd diss' Wüür so as knoewel noch begäng':

Knœwel, -b-, Pl. meist Knœwel, daneben -s, -n m. Knöchel, bes.
Fingerknochen, Finger, oft derb verächtlich. Zum Kind: wasch di ok dei
Knœwels. Drohung: ick haug' di up dei Knœwels, du sast sei in 'n Noors
stäken; ick slag di dei Knœwels tau ne Knackwust. Knœwelborg erfundener ON.
im Flohrätel 'Knöchelburg'; - knœweln, mit den Fingern berühren, bearbeiten,
Teig kneten.

Knœw  Pl. f. Kräfte: Baas is, wer dei meisten Knœw' hett.

Knœsel m. kurze Tabakspfeife, bes. die der Seeleute, wie Kœsel, Brœsel,
Bappen, Kalkstümmel. Dim. Knœselken, ein Lichtstummel: Zs. Tuchthusknœsel;
knœselig : unordentlich zusammengedrückt, -gefaltet; knœseln : befühlen,
knüllen, an etwas herumdrücken.

Lit.: Wossidlo/Teuchert

Deh jüst an mien Gedanken up de Oort von knœseln.

Best Gräuten.

Hanne

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