LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.02.15 (05) [EN]

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From: "Joachim Kreimer-de Fries" <soz-red at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.02.16 (01) [EN]

Am 13.02.2010, 19:05 Uhr, schrieb Marcus Buck:

Orthography is the one main difference that is omnipresent in all texts and
is a main obstacle in mutual understanding, but the other sources of
differences are important too: There are dialectal differences which usually
don't match the national border, but which separate eastern Nedersaksisch
(and German Low Saxon) from western Nedersaksisch. E.g. 'diep' instead of
'deep', 'boek' instead of 'book'. Then there are phonetic adaptations like
the switch from short 'u' to 'o' in words like 'grund'->'grond' or
'up'->'op', which is clearly Dutch-induced (…).

Quite right, beste Marcus,

in some cases NL seems to have cloned somewhat the *modern-DE (NewHiGerman)
vocal shift*, think also of:

*EN              NDS (westfœlsk)              NL (standard-nl)*

*to shoot:     sceyten* [sxɛɪtɘn]              *schieten*1 [sxi:tɘn]

                      scaut, heft scauten             schoot - heeft
geschoten

*to shit:        sciiten* [sxi:tɘn]                 *schijten* [sxæɪtɘn /
sxaɪtɘn]

                      scait, heft sciten                 scheet - heeft
gescheten

1) NL *schieten* means also: EN to supply, give, *geldschieter* therefore:
EN backer, investor, sponsor. I knew that today only from the dictionary. -
Reading in the *Leeuwarder Courant* newspaper about a planned "Mr
Gay-verkiezing" in NL: »'We zijn nog steeds naarstig op zoek naar
geldschieters', stelt hij« - meant Bram Heerink van de Gay Group. I first
admired the ungirt, laxy diction and language use in NL newsmedia. But that
was my own misprision.;-)

That can fairly be a *source of misunderstanding between people!* (As is
with DE schießen vs. scheißen, when deficiently traduced to NDS …)

*But for me, that does not mean that I would renounce what I said:*

"In my perception, the difference between Dutch=Standard Netherlands and
Standard German (DE, HiGerman) is much wider than that between Standard
Netherlands and good Low Saxon = platdüüdsk.… I would the like give the
stress on the similarities between Netherlandish/Flamish, Netherfrancish,
Saxon (Low Saxon in Netherlands, Belgium, parts of North France - Dünkiärken
un ümmegiewing - and Platdüüsk in Germany before 1st world war, there nearby
even Old/Middle English, Norsk, Dansk and Swedish varieties."

The linguistic entity connected with the term "sächsisch" has a rather
negative image in German general public. …

I would care less about that, but indeed, using the wording *sächsisch",
amongst most people requires to add some word about "Why the Saxons are not
Saxons" or convincing them to read: http://www.sachsengeschichte.de/

On the other hand: *if nobody stops with the confusing and ahistorical
appellation and begins consequently to name things, issues, languages with
the terms which are the preciser ones, justified and legitimate by history
and philology,* no wonder that "people", but in first line the addressees
will be, whenever, the professional audiences, don't see reason to change
attitude and concept of the language family they are talking about.

The term "sassisch" in contrast is clean and not connected with any
prejudgments. So if we want to establish a general term, "sassisch" would be
my choice. But now the "but": "Plattdüütsch" is the established term for the
language on the German side of the border.

To tell the truth: the (Low) Saxon varieties in Germany and those plus the
Low Francish ones in the Neighborstates are *all Low German **DE
Niederdeutsch** for me, they would also fit to Lowlandish or **Laiglandisk**
.* ('Netherlands' *DE Niederländisch* as superordinate concept would not go
any more, because definitely attached to the standard language of NL and
Belgium.)

Trying to find accordance at least about the linguistic-historical facts:

Letting out todays minor varieties as Frisian, we have in today existing
Germanic-originating languages different branches. Letting out also the
Skandinavic varieties (which's provenience I don't know in detail), we have
on the European continent (so letting out also the british followers of
continental Anglo-Saxon) two branches of Germanic languages:

1. Those which made the "Old High German consonant shift" (in the middle of
the 1. millenium p. C.) and devoloped to the Middle- and Upper German
dialects resulting first in Old and Middle High German, later - with another
vocal shift - to New High German and latest to the Standard and literary
German, DE.

2. Those which had not followed this consonant shift: today: Dutch (standard
NL) and the dialects/vernaculars of Flemish, Dutch, Neddersaksish,
Africaans, and Low German varieties.

What is missing, is a common name for this latter group of "continental
North See Germanic" languages: the tongs sproken in the succession of Middle
Low German ≈ Middle Dutch.

I admit: "Saxon" is not fully exact, because Low Francish in Germany,
Netherlands and Belgium is not fully embraced in this term. Not ehnically
(what is to minor validate), not from language history.

*"Saxon-Low Francish / Sassesk-Nidderfrankisk /
Sachsisch-Niederfränkisch"*- could some denotation like these be the
termination to name this group of
modern Germanic varieties on the continent (and Africaans and other
descendants outside included)?

I would also like to call them _all_ *"Dutch Languages / Plat Düüdske
Sprauken / Niederdeutschländisch" or "Plat Germanic Language(s)"* ("plat"
here as placeholder for not-consonant-shifted modern Germanic language
varieties".

But I'm open to any other idea for the proposal to find a common
denomination for this language family.

Met echt-westfœlsken »Goutgaun!«


joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries
Osnabrügge => Berlin-Pankow

•

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