LL-L "Grammar" 2010.06.02 (01) [EN-NDS]

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*L O W L A N D S - L - 02 June 2010 - Volume 01*
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From: Hannelore Hinz  HanneHinz at t-online.de

Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2010.06.01 (04) [EN]



Hallo leiw' Frünn',



un wi snacken:



Ick heff, du hest, hei sei et/dat hett,

wi hebben, ji hefft (hemm'), sei hebben.



Un wenn ein seggt "hemm' ", denn is dat noch so'n echten ollen
Plattdüütschen, dat hett mi dunnmals mien Lihrer verklort. Ick heff't
beläwt.



In West-Mäkelborg hürt'n ok af un an  "wi hefft".



Nu is de Lent (Lenz) woll endlich dor.

Best Gräuten.



Hanne



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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2010.06.01 (04) [EN]



From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Language politics"



Beste Hannelore,



You wrote:



...Ja, un 2006 hebben wi, dat heit, Schäuler un ick de VHS verlaten.



It strikes me you consistently write "hebben wi", where Ron, Marcus and
Arend would say "hebbt wi". I have the impression your Saxon is very
authentic though, therefore I wonder, which one would be the innovation,
"hebben wi" or "hebbt wi"?



Any ideas anybody?



Here's the map from the Deutscher
Sprachatlas<http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutscher_Sprachatlas>for it:
<
http://137.248.81.135/diwa/ECW.asp?ID1=333> (Java applet needed to view). A
map for the Netherlands can be found here: <
http://www.meertens.knaw.nl/projecten/mand/GTRPdataperitem.html>. I cannot
give a direct link cause of the site design. You have to click on 'rijtjes',
then you have to look for the link for 'wij hebben'. In the next pop-up
window click 'wijhebben OK', then on 'go create map'. Then a form will open.
Click on 'use extensive form'. Then fill in "t" in 'Form A, request 1,
start' and e.g. "w" in 'Form B, request 1, start'. Then click 'quick map'
and the map will be shown (this site does an awesome performance in
usability ;-) It took me quite a time to get meaningful maps from the
interface.).

Both forms are legitimate Low Saxon, just as Ron said. But looking at the
map we can clearly see, that "wi hebbt" is used in the territories that were
historically settled by the Saxons and that "wi hebben" is an innovation
used in those areas that were once Slavic (Mecklenburg, Pomerania, Prussia,
Brandenburg), Baltic (Prussia), Frisian (Eastern Frisia, Groningen), Danish
(Schleswig) or Frankish (Northern Hesse) and only later saxonized. That's
quite astounding, cause virtually _all_ colonial dialects have this feature
in common, although virtually _none_ of the original Saxon dialects have it.

These plural forms are interesting in another respect. Saxon Low Saxon has
the scheme "wi hebbt, ji hebbt, se hebbt" for "we have, you have, they
have". All three forms are the same. Colonial Low Saxon has "wi hebben, ji
hebben, se hebben". Again all three forms are the same. That's in clear
contrast to the Frankish dialects (including standard Dutch and standard
German) which have the scheme "wir haben, ihr habt, sie haben" with two
different forms. (Although in Dutch this is obscured by the changes that
followed the introduction of polite forms 'jij' and 'jullie' replacing 'du'
and 'jij' [comparable to 'you' replacing 'thou' in English].) The isogloss
between dialects using only one form for the plural and dialects using two
forms is called the 'Einheitsplurallinie' and this isogloss almost perfectly
matches the language border between Dutch and German on the one side and Low
Saxon on the other side.

Marcus Buck



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