LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.09 (03) [EN]

Thu Sep 9 23:32:57 UTC 2010

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*L O W L A N D S - L - 09 September 2010 - Volume 03
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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Helge,

You wrote:

> I just came across a Cologne person using the word "driss" which is a
truly Cologne and Ripuarian expression for "dirt" and can be used to express
objects of displeasure as well. Further to the north, in Krefeld (Lower
Franconian language area) the word "driss" becomes "driit", note, we have
crossed the Benrath line and the s becomes t in the end. Amazingly, in
Norwegian the same word is in use as in Krefeld (spelled "drit") meaning
exactly the same thing and is used in exactly the same context. Moreover,
English "dirt" is related to it and is said to be derived from the
Scandinavian "drit", obviously introduced by the Vikings about 1000 years
ago. However, neither Danish, nor Swedish, Dutch, Frisian or Low Saxon has
this expression (as far as I know) and I am wondering whether the word
"drit" (and its Ripuarian exivalent "driss") is derived from common Germanic
language heritage or whether it has been ex/imported to one or the other
area at one point. I am suspecting the former because the latter would mean
that there has been some linguistic contact between the Rhinelands and
Norway during the Viking age. It has been recorded that some Vikings
obviously sailed up the river Rhine but it would amaze me if those voyages
left a linguistic trace in the Rhinelands. Does anyone know about the
expression "drit/dirt/driss" and its linguistic origions?
>

 Common (Indo)-Germanic word I think. Dutch has "drijten" for "to poop",
Russian has "dristatj" (phonetic) for the same activity and Latin has
"stercus" for dung). Achterhoeks: "dretterig" = suffering from diarrhea.
Also Southern Dutch dialect "drets", "drits" for "mud" (E) and "dretsen",
"dressen", drasjen" for "to splash". A heavy shower of rain, happening on
the Belgian National Holiday, is therefore called the "drache nationale" in
Belgian French:

http://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/drache_nationale

By the way, the etymology on that page, given for "drache" is completely
wrong...the word is not cognate with German "dreschen", "to thresh"
(E)...which is "dös(e)n" in Brabantish.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium

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From: Jan Strunk <strunk at linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>

Subject: Etymology

Hello!

Helge Tietz wrote:
> I just came across a Cologne person using the word "driss" which is a
> truly Cologne and Ripuarian expression for "dirt" and can be used to
> express objects of displeasure as well. Further to the north, in Krefeld
> (Lower Franconian language area) the word "driss" becomes "driit", note,
> we have crossed the Benrath line and the s becomes t in the end.
> Amazingly, in Norwegian the same word is in use as in Krefeld (spelled
> "drit") meaning exactly the same thing and is used in exactly the same
> context. Moreover, English "dirt" is related to it and is said to be
> derived from the Scandinavian "drit", obviously introduced by the
> Vikings about 1000 years ago. However, neither Danish, nor Swedish,
> Dutch, Frisian or Low Saxon has this expression (as far as I know) and I
> am wondering whether the word "drit" (and its Ripuarian exivalent
> "driss") is derived from common Germanic language heritage or whether it
> has been ex/imported to one or the other area at one point. I am
> suspecting the former because the latter would mean that there has been
> some linguistic contact between the Rhinelands and Norway during the
> Viking age. It has been recorded that some Vikings obviously sailed up
> the river Rhine but it would amaze me if those voyages left a linguistic
> trace in the Rhinelands. Does anyone know about the expression
> "drit/dirt/driss" and its linguistic origions?

The word "driit", "driet" is indeed used in Westphalian Low Saxon, mostly as
feminine "driete". It also means "dirt" or even "shit".
It is also sometimes used in Ruhrdeutsch, e.g. "Wat dat gestern widda
für ne Driete wa!". The "liquid equivalent" is "miege", also used
both in Westphalian Low Saxon and Ruhrdeutsch.

Gued gaon!

Jan Strunk
strunk at linguistics.rub.de
Bochum

----------

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.09.09 (02) [EN]

From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>

Subject: lexicon

Hi all,

I just came across a Cologne person using the word "driss" which is a truly
Cologne and Ripuarian expression for "dirt" and can be used to express
objects of displeasure as well. Further to the north, in Krefeld (Lower
Franconian language area) the word "driss" becomes "driit", note, we have
crossed the Benrath line and the s becomes t in the end. Amazingly, in
Norwegian the same word is in use as in Krefeld (spelled "drit") meaning
exactly the same thing and is used in exactly the same context. Moreover,
English "dirt" is related to it and is said to be derived from the
Scandinavian "drit", obviously introduced by the Vikings about 1000 years
ago. However, neither Danish, nor Swedish, Dutch, Frisian or Low Saxon has
this expression (as far as I know) and I am wondering whether the word
"drit" (and its Ripuarian exivalent "driss") is derived from common Germanic
language heritage or whether it has been ex/imported to one or the other
area at one point. I am suspecting the former because the latter would mean
that there has been some linguistic contact between the Rhinelands and
Norway during the Viking age. It has been recorded that some Vikings
obviously sailed up the river Rhine but it would amaze me if those voyages
left a linguistic trace in the Rhinelands. Does anyone know about the
expression "drit/dirt/driss" and its linguistic origions?

Helge

The word is known in Low Saxon areas too. My Plattmakers dictionary has
entries on "drieten" ('to defecate', DE 'koten';
<http://plattmakers.de/?show=9594> <http://plattmakers.de/?show=9594>),
"Driet" ('feces', DE 'Kot';
<http://plattmakers.de/?show=9597><http://plattmakers.de/?show=9597>),
"Drietsack" ('douchebag', DE 'Scheißkerl';
<http://plattmakers.de/?show=9595> <http://plattmakers.de/?show=9595>),
"Drietkeerl" (the same;
<http://plattmakers.de/?show=9630><http://plattmakers.de/?show=9630>),
"drietendick" ('completely drunk', DE 'scheißbesoffen';
<http://plattmakers.de/?show=9596> <http://plattmakers.de/?show=9596>)
"drietegaal" ("Dat is mi drietegaal!": 'I don't give a fuck', DE 'Das ist
mir scheißegal';
<http://plattmakers.de/?show=9599><http://plattmakers.de/?show=9599>)
and "Driethuus" ('bog/crapper', DE 'Scheißhaus';
<http://plattmakers.de/?show=9600> <http://plattmakers.de/?show=9600>).

Here's the map for the word "drieten":
<http://plattmakers.de/?show=map&id=9594><http://plattmakers.de/?show=map&id=9594>.
So far Plattmakers has collected only one reference from Rhade in Westfalia.
Further references are:

- Woeste: 'Westfälisches Wörterbuch', p. 57, who has "driət" ('feces') and
"driəterig" ('dirty').
- 'Wörterbuch der Westmünsterländischen Mundart', p. 236, has "Driet" (m),
"Driete" (f), both meaning 'feces; dirt; small amount, worthless small
thing', "drieten" ('defecate'), "Driet-äärs" ('douchebag'), "Driet-aos"
('douchebag'),"Drietbladd" ('hand [when playing cards] that is useless'),
"driete" ('very; totally'), "Drietebüül" ('coward; sluggard; scumbag'),
"drietegaal" (as above), "Drieteküüwen" ('bucket you defecated in in the old
times'), and about 25 more words.
- Kocks: 'Woordenboek van de Drentse dialecten', p. 227, several entries.
- Gallée: 'Woordenboek van het Geldersch-Overijssels dialect', p. 9:
"drîten" ('exonerare alveum')
- Kahl: 'Wörterbuch des Münsterländer Platt', p. 300, has "Drite" ('dirt')
and "dritendik" ('completely drunk').

Dictionaries I haven't found the word in: 'Versuch eines
Bremisch-Niedersächsischen Wörterbuchs', Schambach: 'Wörterbuch der
niederdeutschen Mundart der Fürstenthümer Göttingen und Grubenhagen',
Molema: 'Woordenboek der Groningsche Volkstaal', Bauer: 'Waldeckisches
Wörterbuch nebst Dialektproben', Strodtmann: 'Idoticon Osnabrugense',
Koolman: 'Ostfriesisches Wörterbuch', Dähnert: 'Plattdeutsches Wörterbuch
nach der alten und neuen pommerschen und rügischen Mundart', Frischbier:
'Preussisches Wörterbuch', Schütze: 'Holsteinisches Idiotikon'.

This suggests to me that it is a solely Westfalian word.
To me it sounds plausible that is was a common Germanic word that fell out
of use in some regions. But if it was common Germanic it must have fallen
out of use at an early stage. There seem to be no traces in Low Saxon
outside Westfalian. That points back in time to about 500 AD, the time when
Westfalia and parts of what is now the Netherlands became saxonized. My
guess is that the Saxons had lost the word before 500, but the pre-Saxon
Westfalians still knew it and imported it in their new language. If "driet"
was a Frankish import or if "driet" fell out of use at a later date it
wouldn't be confined to Westfalia.

Marcus Buck

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