LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.08 (01) [EN]

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From: "dealangeam" <atdelange at iburst.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Grammer" [EN-AF]



Beste Laaglanders,



Ron wrote:

The use of “different” (or verschiedene) with numerals seems justified if it
emphasized that the items are of different types (as opposed to being
identical); e.g.

* She baked three different cakes.

  (= She baked three different types of cakes.)

But in most cases the use of this structure seems ungrammatical; e.g.

* There are four different languages in Switzerland.



First of all, most Afrikaans speakers from all walks of life will say:

* Sy het drie verskillende koeke gebak.

* Daar is twaalf verskillende (inheemse) tale in Suid Afrika.



Secondly, the use of different ("verskillend") involves an unspoken habit
(convention): no categorisation is implied. Should we say:

There are four types of languages in South Africa.

"Daar is vier soorte tale in Suid Afrika".

the majority Afrikaans speakers will understand that it refers to the (1)
Xhoisan, (2) European, (3) Banthu and (4) Asian languages.



Only a few people, even in the hey-days of Apartheid (separatism) would say:

There are twelve separate languages in South Africa.

"Daar is twaalf aparte (afsonderlike) tale in Suid Afrika".



Please note that i only describe MY observations. I will not offer
explanations for these observations.



Mooi loop

At de Lange



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From: Mike Morgan <mwmbombay at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.07 (04) [EN]



I think maybe Kevin hit on WHY different is used even where it would not
make sense (and I disagree slightly with Ron; I think it is an issue of
semantics  NOT grammaticality)


> The word “separate” can sometimes be used the same way.
> - I spoke with him on five separate occasions.



I think (perhaps) there has been a confusion/conflation of "different" and
"separate"... and so "different" has come, in the colloquial at least, to be
used where only "separate" makes "sense".

 mwm || U C > || mike || мика  || माईक || マイク || மாய்க் (aka Dr Michael W
Morgan)
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Senior Consultant
BA Programme in Applied Sign Linguistics
IGNOU-UCLan New Delhi, India
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"I have become my own version of an optimist. If I can't make it through one
door, I'll go through another door - or I'll make a door. Something terrific
will
come no matter how dark the present." (R. Tagore)



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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.07 (02) [EN]



"I spoke to him on five different occasions" would imply, to me, that they
weren't all on the same day, or in the same context.  It might typically be
followed by "and he still did nothing about it".  It provides an
emphasis (and in this case, stronger criticism) than "..on five occasions"
would.



Paul



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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.07 (02) [EN]



Ron asked: “But what about the now frequent colloquial use of “different”
where it is redundant?”



I meant to include that usage as well. Four languages in Switzerland
certainly are different without having to say so, but I understand the word
“different,” redundant tho it is, to intensify or call out, so to speak,
their distinctions.



Mark Brooks



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