LL-L "Phonology" 2012.02.19 (01) [EN]

Mon Feb 20 00:05:43 UTC 2012

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 L O W L A N D S - L - 19 February 2012 - Volume 01
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.02.17 (02) [EN]

There are also a few striking phonological parallells between the Far
Eastern Low Saxon Plautdietsch and its Far Western Low Franconian antipodes,

E.g. in these sentence in the Parable of the Lost (prodigal) Son in the Low
Franconian dialect of Geldern:

"Eck well no hüüs gohn en frogen öm vergiffenis en bekänne min schüld en
min sönd tegen God en tegen öm"
"Öm niet van honger sterven te motten, vermiejde hen sich bei enen boer, öm
de värkes te hüjen."

"eck well" instead of LS "ick will"
"hüüs" instead of LS "huus"
"bekänne" instead of LS "bekenn'n/bekennen"
"honger" instead of LS "hunger"
"motten" instead of LS "mutten"

I don't know the exact Plautdietsch equivalents here, but I think e.g. E
for short I, ÜÜ for UU, final -E for -EN, O for short U,  Ä for short E,
are typical for Plautdietsch as well.

Btw Low Franconian of Germany is closer to Dutch than Low Saxon is, also
Low Saxon in the Netherlands is less related to Dutch than Low Franconian
at the Lower Rhine region in Germany.
Low Franconian dialects of Southern Gelderland and Limburg are especially
close to those of bordering Germany.

Btw 2: another striking thing is that even hundreds of kilometres more to
the West, in Zeeland, West-Flandria (Belgium) and French Flandres, the same
phonological features reappear: E for I, ÜÜ for UU, Ä for E.

Maybe that helps to give Plautdietsch this Dutchish sound I mentioned?

Ingmar

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.02.16 (05) [EN]

In the sound  of Plautdietsch I think to hear a Dutch accent, it sounds
"Dutcher" or more familiar somehow than the present day  Low Saxon dialects
of Germany.

Enjmaur

From: Michael Everson [log in to unmask]
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2012.02.16 (04) [EN]

> From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <[log in to unmask]>

> Nice, Michael (btw: EVERtype as in EVERson?),

Of course.

> I have a question: how is "au" pronounced in Plautdietsch, is it a
diphthong like German and Dutch au, and English ou/ow, or is it more like
an open "o" like sound, as English aw/au, or something else?

I have assumed it is [ɔː] or similar.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/

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From: R. F. Hahn <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Phonology

Hi, Ingmar!

You asked about the phonetic equivalent of "au" in Mennonite Low Saxon
(Plautdietsch) (equivalent of Central Low Saxon short /a/ [a] and Dutch
short /a/ [ɑ]).

Personally I hear it as [ɑʊ] most of the time (as opposed to "German-style"
[aʊ]).

But why not listen to it yourself?

Jack Driedger:
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/khortitza.php

Reuben Epp (our dear late Lowlands-L member):
http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/molochna.php

Another clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9A37iqbo1BE

Please bear in mind that k > kj is older than "Russian" ("Soviet") k > kj >
tj. This goes hand in hand with the shift u > ü. In other words, Mennonites
whose ancestors left "Russia" earlier use kj and u, while those that left
"Russia" more recently use tj and ü.

Here is a non-Mennonite Low Saxon dialect of the Midwest USA:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMiElxOaHIo

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Hi, Ingmar!

The early Mennonites came from various parts of the Netherlands, on their
way east were joined by people of what is now Northern Germany, and
eventually picked up the East Pomeranian Low Saxon dialect of the Vistula
Delta. I assume that they developed their own dialect variant by way of a
far-western substrate accumulation. Later developments took place in
Ukraine  and eventually all over the Soviet Union.

One of the main characteristics of Germanic varieties that were exported to
the far east is the unrounding of front rounded vowels; typically ü > i and
ö > e. This applies to all far-western Low Saxon, German and Yiddish
varieties and may be assumed to be due to Slavic and Baltic substrata.
Plautdietsch (i.e. Mennonite Low Saxon) underwent additional shifts, some
of which it shares with now mostly extinct other Vistula Delta var. Notable
is almost general vowel lowering (with rounding of the low vowels): i > e,
e > e ~ a, a > au, aa > o(a), but i and ö derived from rounded vowels (ü >
i and ö > e) tend not to be affected by this.

  Non-Mennonite

Mennonite

Gift

Jeft

poison

in

en

in

is

es

is

Hööd

Heed

hats

gröön

jreen

green

Hüs’ ~ Hüser

Hiesa

houses

Hand

Haund

hand

dat

daut

that

gahn

gohne

to go

klagen

kloage

to complain

büst

best

(thou) art

Küken

Kjiekjel ~ Tjietjel

chick

düütsch

dietsch

German

Already at the Vistula Delta (as opposed to later Ukrainian colonies),
Plautdietsch acquired palatalization before front vowels. This includes the
shift k > kj which some ("Russian") dialects later shifted to tj.
Palatalization of non-word-initial /d/ is a feature Plautdietsch shares
with Lower Rhine Frankish.

  Non-Mennonite

Mennonite

Gift

Jeft

poison

Gold

Gold

gold

gääl

jääl

yellow

Küken

Kjiekjel ~ Tjietjel

chick

Kind

Kjind ~ Tjind

child

Kinner

Kjinja ~ Tjinja

children

Band

Baund

band

Bänner

Benja

bands

kaken

koake

to cook

kieken

kjiekje ~ tjietje

to look

wegen

wäje

to cradle, to weigh

There is another shift that distinguishes "New Colony" Plautdietsch from
"Old Colony" Plautdietsch and is predominant in the dialects of
20th-century Soviet Union. While front rounded vowels had earlier become
unrounded (see above), this latest development made back-vocalic long /u/
into frontal ü.

  Non-Mennonite

Old Colony

New Colony

Huus

Huus

Hüüs

house

Hüs’ ~ Hüser

Hiesa

Hiesa

houses

Tuun

Tuun

Tüün

fence

Tüün

Tien

Tien

fences

Uul

Uul

Üül

owl

bruun

bruun

brüün

brown

I hope that this clarifies a few things.

I believe that Plautdietsch *-e *compared with Low Saxon *-en* adds to the
Low Frankish sound.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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