LL-L "Traditions" 2012.03.22 (02) [EN]

Fri Mar 23 04:21:10 UTC 2012

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 L O W L A N D S - L - 22 March 2012 - Volume 02
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From: Mike Morgan mwmbombay at gmail.com

Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2012.03.22 (01) [EN]

The woman belongs to the group of Naqvi Sayeds (< Sayyid, plural *Sadat*)
who are those (mostly South Asians) who claim descent from the Prophet
(PBUH) through Ali Naqi Al-Hadi the 10th Twelver Shi'a Imam (whose son was
Sayed, hence the 2nd part of the name).
... (genetic work I have seen however does not quite match with the claim)

>
Oh and that research (for any who are interested in how one might research
such claims) can be read in:

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/mace-lab/publications/articles/2010/Belle_AAS10_Syed.pdf

(PS my 1st (conscious) acquaintance with the Syeds was via Indian
Matrimonials... which I have read off an on since the late 70s as an
amusement... and for the insight they give into both language (e.g.
"homely" meaning "good at housekeeping" NOT "ugly" as it would to an
American) and into the culture (you might -- or might not -- be surprised
at the changes (and some of the lack of change) in WHAT characteristics are
self advertised and what ones are sought...)

Anyway, the research does NOT question Arab ancestry for the Syeds, just
questions claims to a specific "recent" common ancestry.

mwm || *U* C > || mike || мика  || माईक || マイク || மாய்க் (aka Dr Michael W
Morgan)
sign language linguist / linguistic typologist at large / "Have
language(s), will travel"

*"If one has no affection for a person or a system, one should feel free to
give the fullest expression to his disaffection so long as he does not
contemplate, promote, or incite violence." (MKG)
"You assist an unjust administration most effectively by obeying its orders
and decrees. An evil administration never deserves such allegiance.
Allegiance to it means partaking of the evil.* *A good person will resist
an evil system with his whole soul. Disobedience of the laws of an evil
state is therefore a duty." (MKG)*
been there, done that...

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL>

Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2012.03.22 (01) [EN]

Thanks, Mike. You're right, it was Sayyed. I don't know whether their Arab
descent is right, but to me they don't look any different from the general
Tajiks i.e. the Dari speaking, Sunni Afghans, and usually I can see whether
an Afghan is a Pashtun, a Tajik or a Hazara (two types of them). I also
have known a few Turkic (Turkmen and Uzbek) speaking Afghans, and I was
surprised to see that they looked completely Caucasoid, and not Mongolid as
I'd expected.
I also have know a few Uyghur people from China, some of whom look
surprisingly Caucasoid, others quite Mongolid.
By the way, the myth of Turkic multiple intelligibilty is a myth indeed, at
least I noticed that Turkmens from Afghanistan could hardly communicate
with Turkmens from Iraq, nor with people from Turkey. I also knew a Russian
guy who grew up in Kazan, Tatarstan and managed to communicate a bit in
Tatar with people from Turkey and with Turkmens.
Also very interesting: many people from Kirkuk, Iraq, can speak both
Kurdish (Sorani), Turkmen and of course Iraqi Arabic. Iraqi Turkmen is
actually very close to Turkish and Azeri. Yes, as you see my job with
asylumseekers and refugees has very interesting sides to it.  Ingmar

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk

Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2012.03.21 (02) [EN]

They celebrate it on the Equinox as far as I know, which was 20 March this
year. (Leap year effect).  The modern Iranian calendar is a solar one which
remains in step with ours; I don't know when they have their leap-day
though, or whether their leap year is even the same.

Paul

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Traditions

I find all this very interesting. But we do need to somehow bring this home
to Lowlands relevance, folks, e.g. to the topic of traditions and
celebrations or to that of degrees of mutual intelligibility among Lowlands
language varieties.

Ingmar, I can verify that mutual intelligibility among the Turkic languages
is not as simple as it often touted to be. But it is no myth either. There
are various degrees. It depends on the listener's ability (since some
people are better at cracking the language code than are others), and it is
also a matter of if you are talking about fluent speech, slow deliberate
speech or reading, and there is the issue of commonalities between
respective vocabulary sources. I have studied Turkish and Uyghur (the
latter in both "Chinese" and "Soviet" varieties) and have taken summer
crash courses in Uzbek and Kazakh. This makes it relatively easy for me to
read and to understand slowly spoken (or sung) Yughur, Kyrgyz, Azeri
(Azerbaijani), Gagauz, Turkmen, Salar, Crimean "Tatar," Karaim, Tatar and
Bashkir. For one thing, most of them share a great deal of Persian and
(mostly Persian-transmitted) Arabic vocabulary, and Karaim is full of
Hebrew loanwords (which I understand). Besides that, most of them share a
great many Russian loanwords (most of which I know). And I do understand
most Chinese loanwords in Uyghur. Turkish and Azeri are very closely
related to each other, as are Uyghur and Uzbek respectively. I would
compare their respective relationships with that of Dutch vs Low Saxon, or
with Scots vs English, or with Dutch vs Afrikaans, or with Danish vs
Swedish. When it comes to the Turkic languages of Siberia's non-Islamized
peoples, I have a lot more problems. Drawing on my Old Turkic and Old
Uyghur learning is limited, because some of those languages have been
influenced by Mongolic, Tungusic and various Paleo-Siberian languages. This
is a bit more like comparing Modern German with Yiddish, and beyond that.
Finally, it is all a matter of frequency and intensity of exposure.

My point: this topic can't be dealt with in a couple of sentences.

If you want to chime in to this thread dealing with mutual comprehension,
please submit it separately under "Language varieties," and please try to
make it Lowlands-relevant.

Best regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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