"Na miru i smert' krasna"

[Gasan Gusejnov]

As far as I remember, the initial question was:

"What could be a good translation for or a possible English equivalent to
the Russian proverb "Na miru i smert' krasna"?

Commenting on the proposals I didn't intend either to give any "alternative
interpretation" or to insist on my addition as the only correct
interpretation. My aim was to show the less visible and therefore easily
omitted part of the spectrum of meaning. From this point of view, the narrow
interpretation of "на миру и смерть красна" just in the sense of "в семье и
смерть красна" cannot be treated as correct for the search of a better
translation. A positive banalizing of the 'people's wisdom reflected in the
proverbs' has a long tradition. That was the point of my polemic.

Zhukov's example from Lev Tolstoy's "Metel' is excellent and seems to be
very helpful: "Видно было, что несмотря на то, что он был очень трусоват, -
на миру и смерть красна, - он совершенно стал спокоен с тех пор, как нас
было много". Zhukov's comparison of the proverb with "С миром и беда не
убыток", makes sense. But only a half of it. To touch the problem from
another side, we shouldn't forget the word "и", which means "даже" here:

[Normally death is horrible, but] in the crowd {на миру ~ на виду у всех}
even death may appear beautiful.

It is easy to use such
sentences<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dulce_et_decorum_est_pro_patria_mori>in
malam
or in bonam partem, isn't it.

None of the proposed translations -

*"Misery loves company"*.

*"Company in distress makes sorrow (trouble) less"*

*"Public death is <always> glorious" or "public death is <always>
beautiful".*-
responded to the extremity of this proverbial *death* (neither *trouble*,
nor *ubytok*, nor *beda*). which under certain circumstances  *may* *even* <not
always :-) > become *beautiful*. The proposed interpretations of the
dictionaries cited are diminishing the sharpness of the proverb's literal
expression. For a translator, I guess, this argument should be more
convincing than voting or bunching banalities. And we still did not find "a
good translation or a possible English equivalent", did we?

2008/6/6 Robert A. Rothstein <rar at slavic.umass.edu>:

> It's not unusual for a proverb to be understood in more than one way, with
> different native speakers fully convinced that their interpretation is _the_
> correct one. Sometimes they are not even aware that another interpretation
> exists. The English proverb "A rolling stone gathers no moss," for example,
> is understood positively by some speakers (i.e., if you keep moving/being
> active, you don't get tied down/stale etc.) and negatively by others (i.e.,
> if you don't settle down, you won't acquire anything - a home, family,
> savings, etc.). Since I am not a native speaker of Russian, when I ventured
> to answer Lily Alexander's question about an English equivalent for the
> Russian proverb, I had recourse to published sources:
>
> 1. the phraseological dictionary compiled by Sophia Lubensky, who is a
> native speaker and also a careful scholar, and whose dictionary - as other
> colleagues have pointed out - is an extraordinarily useful reference work;
>
> 2. a small book by B. Tougan-Baranovskaia, "Proverbes et dictons russes
> avec leur équivalents français," published in Moscow sometime after 1960
> judging by the bibliography;
>
> to which I can now add:
>
> 3. V. P. Zhukov, "Slovar' russkikh poslovits i pogovorok," izd. 4-e,
> ispravlennoe i dopolnennoe (M.: Russkii iazyk, 1991).
>
>   Zhukov explains the proverb "na miru (na liudiakh, s liud'mi) i smert'
> krasna" as follows: "Kogda chelovek ne odin, vse mozhno perezhit', dazhe
> umeret' ne strashno." His entry includes several literary examples ranging
> from the 18th to the 20th century, the first of which is from Lev Tolstoy's
> "Metel': "Vidno bylo, chto nesmotria na to, chto on byl ochen' trusovat, -
> na miru i smert' krasna; on sovershenno stal spokoen s tekh por, kak nas
> bylo mnogo." Zhukov compares this proverb with another, "S mirom i beda ne
> ubytok," which he calls "ustarelaia" and explains as, "Sredi liudei, kotorye
> vsegda pomogut, ne tak oshchutimy beda, neschast'e i t.p."
>
> None of this proves that the alternative interpretations, such as the one
> provided most recently by Gasan Gusejnov, are wrong. It may suggest,
> however, that there is a majority interpretation (or a traditional one) and
> a minority interpretation (or a newer one).
>
>
> Bob Rothstein
>
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-- 
Гасан Гусейнов

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