Derzhavnaya bogoroditsa?

Sat Oct 31 05:00:53 UTC 2009

Dear George,

I would explore Jaroslav Pelikan's research for the answer, since his Mary Through the Centuries covers various traditions with several images.  He also discusses some of the early Mariology in his first two volumes of The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine.

Sincerely,
Betsy Blake
SLU

P.S. By the way, I thought that I should mention that, as cradle Catholic, I do not really differentiate between my usage of Virgin (frequently found in liturgical prayers) and Mother of God (found in the Hail Mary), because I usually call her Mary.  If I use the title "Our Lady", it is used in a more specific context.  

--- On Thu, 10/29/09, George Kalbouss <kalbouss at MAC.COM> wrote:

> From: George Kalbouss <kalbouss at MAC.COM>
> Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Derzhavnaya bogoroditsa?
> To: SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu
> Date: Thursday, October 29, 2009, 2:31 PM
> I agree that one thousand years of
> Roman Catholic theological shifts now contribute to
> Post-Schism Catholic terms in English being translated as
> if they were also applicable to
> various Orthodox associations, and may lead the uninitiated
> to conclude a greater degree
> of closeness between the two faiths than actually
> exist.  Let's face it, this is one of the reason
> that we pedagogues exist, to identify the similarities and
> differences.   So--  while
> we're at it,  how do dear colleagues deal with the
> slippery concept of "Uspenie"?  Assumption?
> Dormition?    That Cathedral in the Kremlin is
> often translated as the Assumption Cathedral, although
> I note that the Wikipedia entry uses "Dormition."
> 
> 
> 
> George Kalbouss
> Emeritus  The Ohio State University
> 
> 
> On Oct 29, 2009, at 11:10 AM, Michele A. Berdy wrote:
> 
> > This is very interesting. And sorry to beat a dead
> horse, but… I still don’t agree. I think language and
> religion are being confused. “Virgin” “Virgin Mary”
> “Our Lady of” etc are common Catholic names of religious
> paintings; "Mother of God of..." is a common Orthodox name
> of an icon. The former is more familiar to an
> English-speaking audience, but that’s just because there
> are more Catholics in the US/UK than Orthodox. Mother of God
> doesn’t sound “foreign” to English-speaking Orthodox.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > When you translate Bogomater’ as “The Virgin
> Mary” or "The Virgin," you are not just switching
> languages, you’re switching religious traditions. I think
> it’s inappropriate to add Catholic
> associations/connotations to an Orthodox icon, as it is also
> inappropriate to add Orthodox associations/connotations to a
> Catholic religious painting when translating into Russian.
> I’m not sure that this is a big deal (despite my nattering
> on about it), but I’m sorry the art world is doing it (on
> both sides). Why not just translate literally? Accurate
> translations would seem a bit odd or cumbersome to audiences
> raised in different religions and religious environments,
> but in time they’d get used to it.
> > 
> > My two (perhaps overly sensitive) cents
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Ryan"
> <wfr at SAS.AC.UK>
> > To: <SEELANGS at bama.ua.edu>
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 9:15 PM
> > Subject: Re: [SEELANGS] Derzhavnaya bogoroditsa?
> > 
> > 
> >> I absolutely agree with this.
> >> 
> >> For many words, titles, names, expressions etc
> there is no such thing as a 'correct' translation, only an
> appropriate one, and that may depend on such variables as
> context, stylistic register, and convention. And even within
> specialist areas (e.g. specific religious communities, or
> the world of art and culture) there may be considerable
> variety of usage.
> >> 
> >> The comparative Google searches which I quoted in
> my previous posting may not have been very scientific but
> they were very illuminating - I recommend a little
> browsing.
> >> 
> >> Will Ryan
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Margaret Anne Samu wrote:
> >>> Since Russian icons and liturgical images
> started moving into the art world about a century ago, let
> me chime in from the art historian's viewpoint.
> >>> 
> >>> The standard name used by art historians is
> the Virgin (Virgin of Vladimir, etc.) almost regardless of
> the image's country of origin. There are notable exceptions
> with famous images whose historical names stuck, such as
> Raphael's Alba Madonna (National Gallery of Art, Wash.,
> D.C.).
> >>> You will see this usage in most art history
> publications, including ones with objects from diverse
> countries, such as the catalogue from the Metropolitan
> Museum of Art's recent exhibition, Byzantium: Faith and
> Power, which included an entire gallery of Virgins--many
> from Russia. I see the Met as a standard of scholarly 
> neutrality, which may or may not be the goal here.
> >>> 
> >>> Some publications dealing exclusively with
> Russian and Byzantine objects do aim for linguistic accuracy
> by using the term Mother of God, such as the catalogue for
> the traveling exhibition The Gates of Mystery. This
> exhibition had a very different aim, it seems to me, from
> the Met's. The Gates of Mystery (as its title implies) was
> very much about creating an aura of foreignness around the
> art, giving the visitor access to a mysterious Russian
> spiritual world, while the Met's Byzantium exhibition tried
> to place late Byzantine (including Russian) images in a
> broader context that visitors would readily understand.
> >>> 
> >>> The main problem with using the phrase Mother
> of God is that it the extra preposition can get
> unnecessarily bumbly when you are trying to create a
> readable sentence, since most of them are "of" something or
> somewhere, and you are usually dealing with attribution (by)
> and place of origin (from). But it is used sometimes,
> especially when the images' liturgical aspects are being
> emphasized.
> >>> 
> >>> Similarly, art historians usually use "Christ"
> (figure of Christ, infant Christ, Christ Pantokrator, etc.)
> instead of the liturgical Jesus (baby Jesus, etc.) or
> Savior--not that the latter never appear, either.
> >>> 
> >>> Meanwhile, I hope the original question about
> sources on the image under discussion has been answered.
> >>> 
> >>> Margaret
> >>> 
> >>> ======================
> >>> Margaret Samu
> >>> Ph.D. Candidate in Art History
> >>> Institute of Fine Arts, New York University
> >>> 1 East 78th Street
> >>> New York, NY  10075
> >>> 
> >>>
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