Antw: Re: SW-HamNoSys

Fri Jul 6 07:17:15 UTC 2012

Dear Valerie, Stefan and all,

Valerie, you met the point: What the DELEGS and maybe similar do, is to
"transpose" or "transfer" or "convert" data from one notation system to
the other: German words or glosses are transposed into SignWriting of
the respective DGS or Signed German. That's like transposing any written
alphabetic language to the morse or flag code. Also what Penny has
proposed, is the idea for a "transposition" algorithm between HamNoSys
and SignWriting. All these things are very very valuable because they
reduce individual work enormously and allow exchange of information
between different notation systems as well as diverse improvements of
furtherance and education. But they do not "translate" in the linguistic
sense, i.e. "move/turn" information/concepts/content from one language
into the other.

I suppose that the extension (area of use) of "translate" overlaps
somehow with the extensions of "transfer", "transpose" etc. This fact
can produce misunderandings if "translate" is used in its widest sense.
I'm always getting a little bit angry when we read advertisements like
"now sign language can be translated into German". The reason is that I
know how politicians and financial adminitrators read this: they think
"oh, super, now we have automatic translation for sign languages and we
don't need any humans as interpreters!" So, by these wrong
advertisements the sign language communities can suffer harm when money
is given people who promise what they are unable to deliver, instead to
give the money to the communities in order to enable them to fund
research which helps them directly in their everyday needs. I do not
blame colleagues to consciously use this strategy; I only warn them not
to overlook the pragmatic consequence of using unsharp/misleading
descriptions.

I think that we can agree on the different functions of diverse
software when they are described in detail using clear terms about the
meaning of which we have consensus.

The only disagreement I see between Stefan's and my position is the
role of mouthing: When DELEGS gives full mouthing (i.e. the complete
German word) or at least hints on mouthing for EVERY sign, then this is
not in accord to the findings of sign language linguistics: I would like
to state that no native signer really gives the mothing for every sign
(s)he uses in a default SL communication. Therefore having a mouthing
notation for every sign does not represent "natural" sign language use.
In order to avoid misunderstanding: This does not mean that adding full
or partial mouthing wouldn't make any pedagogical sense!

To comment on writing systems vs. notation systems: SignWriting can be
seen as a "writing system" as it shares some properties with other
writing systems: it allows to produce permanent and quickly readable
equivalents to non-permanent signed texts. Maybe, if it would be in use
every time and worldwide, it would - like other writing systems -
develop to one or more reduced forms in order to be even more quickly
and reduce redundancy; but it is a comparable to writing system as we
know them from spoken languages (as we know, these are more or less
"phonetic", i.e. in any case not completely scientific but for pragmatic
use) . Its advantage is that it offers "gestalts" for signs which can be
more or less "read" immediately. Scientific notation systems for spoken
languages (think for representing speech by the combination of single
phonetic feature values like "anterior", "voiced" etc.) as well as for
signed languages (e.g. Johnson-Liddell or HamNoSys) don't offer the
easiness which is necessary for everyday quick use. Therefore we need
both for different functions.

To comment on Penny's idea of relating SignWriting to HamNoSys: If that
would work, it would be great, as SignWriting can be "read" very easily
with some instruction, while the scientific HamNoSys notation can be
directly "read" only by very experienced experts, as it doesn't give an
idea of the synthesis of parameter values or their exact sequencing. On
the other side, having the possibiltiy to search for single parameter
values via HamNoSys and have the findings related to the SignWriting of
the respective signs would make research much easier than today. I
suppose that interchangeability depends on the software code of
SignWriting, i.e. if every parameter value can be extracted
automatically from it.

Best Regards

Franz

>>> "Valerie Sutton" <sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG> 7/5/2012 4:34 >>>
Hello Franz -
I want you to know I appreciate this conversation, and I am sorry if I
said something that disturbed you -

And thank you for pointing out Stefan's creative use of these tools in
his classroom - Stefan is a remarkable teacher of Deaf children and is
very creative indeed ;-)

DELEGS is software that is dependent on glosses - I never even thought
about that, but that is true...

SignPuddle is not dependent on glosses. In SignText, I and others write
directly in the movements of sign languages without ever using any gloss
system or thinking in a spoken language…

However, other SignPuddle users do use glosses to compose their
documents - so it depends on the writer…SignPuddle has both options...

So please tell me how I can correct my description of the process - I
want to say it correctly… Perhaps it is the term "translation" that has
a different meaning in the linguistics profession, that I do not
understand? We have a Translate Feature in SignPuddle that is based on
glosses, so we have used that term freely...

Val ;-)

--------

On Jul 4, 2012, at 11:35 PM, Franz.Dotter at UNI-KLU.AC.AT wrote:

Dear Stefan and others,

I really estimate your approach to use creative means in order to teach
German (or any other spoken language to deaf students). I'm only
pleading for correct info. What disturbed me was Valeries sentence: "can
create documents that translate spoken language textbooks, into written
sign language". I think all agree that a formulation like: "the program
can a) convert glossed sign language sentences into SignWriting, b)
convert single written German words into DGS or Signed
Germanequivalents, given in SignWriting c) a written German sentence is
converted word-by-word into DGS and Signed German equivalents, given in
SignWriting, by that offering a Signed German version of the original
sentence". These achievements are great enough and many teachers will
take them over gratefully; therefore we need not say "there is
translation from German to DGS".

To give an example: If you take a German sentence like "Ich werde
gehen" = (I will go), you get the auxiliary verb "werden" also as a sign
(which is clearly Signed German; and has some pedagogical advanthge in
some settings, but is not DGS)

Concerning the mouthings: I understand the difference between the full
"Mundbildschrift" and the hints given in DELEGS/SignWriting now. But the
fact remains that these hints do not represent default mouthings as they
are used in DGS; they are still hints towards spoken language (to
repeat: I do neither critisise this from a pedagocical nor from a
bilingual perspective; I only want to state that these elements are not
(Greman) sign language elements).

Best Regards

Franz

>>> Stefan Wöhrmann<stefanwoehrmann at GEBAERDENSCHRIFT.DE> 7/4/2012 11:46
>>>
Hello Valerie, Franz and everyone –

It is just as you say Valerie and I want to repeat that.

Delegs iss a wonderful tool to create bilingual materials and “It
depends on the skill of the writer (translator). It also depends on what
the writer wants to do.”

So of course you can create translations from an idea expressed in
spoken language to the same idea expressed in DGS. The wonderful thing
is that you can rely on a written document which shows perfectly the
writers idea how to sign this given concept or that shows how a given
sign language performance can be translated to spoken language.

Unfortunately there is obviously a misunderstanding in your idea that
the “Mundbilder”   symbolise sounds within the SignWriting face – they
do not!!!

Woehrmanns-speechwriting should not be mixed up with my invention of
“Mundbildschrift” a system that supports the articulation process in
deaf students...

The “Mundbilder” in SignWriting (GebaerdenSchrift) are simply meant to
document mouth- tongue – lip movements   - it is a guessing game like
lipreading – but including the information coming from your hands it is
easy to understand.

Once more – Delegs  - is a tool that allows anybody to create written
documents of Sign language DGS, ASL,  and spoken language. Why should
this not be a translation? The scribe is just asked to write what he
wants to write... smile.

Stefan

Von: linguists interested in signed languages
[mailto:SLLING-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] Im Auftrag von Valerie
Sutton
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 4. Juli 2012 16:03
An: SLLING-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Betreff: Re: Antw: Re: SW-HamNoSys

Hello Franz and everyone -

It depends on the skill of the writer (translator). It also depends on
what the writer wants to do.

If the software is used without a knowledge of sign languages, and how
to translate, then you are right that any software and any writing
system can be used incorrectly.

But a translator who knows sign languages and spoken languages well,
and knows how to translate between the languages, and knows how to use
the SignWriting-related software to produce good translations, can
produce linguistically correct documents using any SignWriting-related
software.

In the case of SignPuddle, we have an Editor called the SignText
Editor. In the SignText Editor we can write directly in sign languages
without any connection to spoken languages. We can also then save each
individual sign within a sign language document, into a dictionary,
which can then be accessed by DELEGS software.

Inside DELEGS software, the writer can then write the gloss for the
sign language sentences that will access or bring in the signs from the
special SignPuddle file created for the work…so the writer in DELEGS is
not required to do Signed German - a translation that provides proper
spoken German and proper DGS can be created using a combination of
SignPuddle's SignText Editor, SignPuddle dictionaries, and the DELEG's
Editor.

I know the DELEGs developers are planning to produce their own Editor
in time, but at the moment, this is how it is being done…

Val ;-)

-----------

On Jul 3, 2012, at 11:48 PM, Franz.Dotter at UNI-KLU.AC.AT wrote:

Dear colleagues,

Concerning DELEGS you have to add that "translate" is not the adequate
word here: DELEGS simply puts a German word into a SignWriting notation
of an adequate DGS sign. If you use a real German sentence, you create
pure Signed German. Only if you use a correct glossing of a signed
sentence (i.e. if you know how the grammar of DGS), you will get a
grammatically acceptable DGS sentence. Moreover, the face is enriched
with a full notation of the sounds of the German word used (not only a
possible mouthing).
Both systems, the Woehrmann-system of symbolising sounds within the
SignWriting face as well as DELEGS do have their merits for several
educational settings and I would not like to underscore the creative
work contained in them.
But: There is no TRANSLATION from anywhere to somewhere. As there are
some similar advertisements of "translation" in the context of sign
languages /cf. e.g. also http://www.pslt.org/), I'm a little bit
concerned about the result of such advertisements when people from
outside learn that all these announcemenst were not true. Please, tell
the linguistic truth!

Best Regards

Franz Dotter

1. Now, there is new software from the University of Hamburg and C1 WPS
Workplace Solutions, called DELEGS, that coordinates with the SignPuddle
DGS dictionary, Stefan and other teachers of Deaf students in Germany,
can create documents that translate spoken language textbooks, into
written sign language, so their students can understand both languages
better and can grasp the content of the textbooks. So the German
SignPuddles online are geared towards Deaf Education, and are used with
this software:

DELEGS
http://www.delegs.com/delegseditor/

DELEGS stands for "German Learning with SignWriting" but in German of
course…I believe it is "Deutsch lernen mit GebaerdenSchrift" (Stefan and
others, please correct me if I am wrong ;-))

Anyway - that specific database is impressive for its educational
purpose…

THANK YOU, to all of you, who have created DELEGS…and thank you to
Stefan Woehrmann for making this possible

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