Email address change request
Loubett at AOL.COM
Loubett at AOL.COM
Fri Jul 6 19:20:04 UTC 2012
Please change my email address from _loubett at aol.com_
(mailto:loubett at aol.com) to _bettyekray at aol.com_ (mailto:bettyekray at aol.com) . Thank you, Bettye
In a message dated 7/5/2012 9:00:49 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
LISTSERV at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU writes:
There are 3 messages totalling 1516 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. AW: Antw: Re: SW-HamNoSys (2)
2. Antw: Re: SW-HamNoSys
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 08:35:10 +0200
From: Franz.Dotter at UNI-KLU.AC.AT
Subject: AW: Antw: Re: SW-HamNoSys
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Dear Stefan and others,
=20
I really estimate your approach to use creative means in order to teach
German (or any other spoken language to deaf students). I'm only
pleading for correct info. What disturbed me was Valeries sentence: "can
create documents that translate spoken language textbooks, into written
sign language". I think all agree that a formulation like: "the program
can a) convert glossed sign language sentences into SignWriting, b)
convert single written German words into DGS or Signed
Germanequivalents, given in SignWriting c) a written German sentence is
converted word-by-word into DGS and Signed German equivalents, given in
SignWriting, by that offering a Signed German version of the original
sentence". These achievements are great enough and many teachers will
take them over gratefully; therefore we need not say "there is
translation from German to DGS".
=20
To give an example: If you take a German sentence like "Ich werde
gehen" =3D (I will go), you get the auxiliary verb "werden" also as a sig=
n
(which is clearly Signed German; and has some pedagogical advanthge in
some settings, but is not DGS)
=20
Concerning the mouthings: I understand the difference between the full
"Mundbildschrift" and the hints given in DELEGS/SignWriting now. But the
fact remains that these hints do not represent default mouthings as they
are used in DGS; they are still hints towards spoken language (to
repeat: I do neither critisise this from a pedagocical nor from a
bilingual perspective; I only want to state that these elements are not
(Greman) sign language elements).
=20
Best Regards
=20
Franz
>>> Stefan W=C3=B6hrmann<stefanwoehrmann at GEBAERDENSCHRIFT.DE> 7/4/2012 11=
:46
>>>
Hello Valerie, Franz and everyone =E2=80=93=20
=20
It is just as you say Valerie and I want to repeat that.=20
=20
Delegs iss a wonderful tool to create bilingual materials and =E2=80=9CIt
depends on the skill of the writer (translator). It also depends on what
the writer wants to do.=E2=80=9D
=20
So of course you can create translations from an idea expressed in
spoken language to the same idea expressed in DGS. The wonderful thing
is that you can rely on a written document which shows perfectly the
writers idea how to sign this given concept or that shows how a given
sign language performance can be translated to spoken language.=20
=20
Unfortunately there is obviously a misunderstanding in your idea that
the =E2=80=9CMundbilder=E2=80=9D symbolise sounds within the SignWritin=
g face =E2=80=93 they
do not!!!=20
=20
Woehrmanns-speechwriting should not be mixed up with my invention of
=E2=80=9CMundbildschrift=E2=80=9D a system that supports the articulation=
process in
deaf students...=20
=20
The =E2=80=9CMundbilder=E2=80=9D in SignWriting (GebaerdenSchrift) are si=
mply meant to
document mouth- tongue =E2=80=93 lip movements - it is a guessing game =
like
lipreading =E2=80=93 but including the information coming from your hands=
it is
easy to understand.=20
=20
Once more =E2=80=93 Delegs - is a tool that allows anybody to create wri=
tten
documents of Sign language DGS, ASL, and spoken language. Why should
this not be a translation? The scribe is just asked to write what he
wants to write... smile.=20
=20
Stefan=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
Von: linguists interested in signed languages
[mailto:SLLING-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] Im Auftrag von Valerie
Sutton
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 4. Juli 2012 16:03
An: SLLING-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Betreff: Re: Antw: Re: SW-HamNoSys
=20
Hello Franz and everyone -
=20
It depends on the skill of the writer (translator). It also depends on
what the writer wants to do.
=20
If the software is used without a knowledge of sign languages, and how
to translate, then you are right that any software and any writing
system can be used incorrectly.
=20
But a translator who knows sign languages and spoken languages well,
and knows how to translate between the languages, and knows how to use
the SignWriting-related software to produce good translations, can
produce linguistically correct documents using any SignWriting-related
software.
=20
In the case of SignPuddle, we have an Editor called the SignText
Editor. In the SignText Editor we can write directly in sign languages
without any connection to spoken languages. We can also then save each
individual sign within a sign language document, into a dictionary,
which can then be accessed by DELEGS software.
=20
Inside DELEGS software, the writer can then write the gloss for the
sign language sentences that will access or bring in the signs from the
special SignPuddle file created for the work=E2=80=A6so the writer in DEL=
EGS is
not required to do Signed German - a translation that provides proper
spoken German and proper DGS can be created using a combination of
SignPuddle's SignText Editor, SignPuddle dictionaries, and the DELEG's
Editor.
=20
I know the DELEGs developers are planning to produce their own Editor
in time, but at the moment, this is how it is being done=E2=80=A6
=20
Val ;-)
=20
-----------
=20
=20
On Jul 3, 2012, at 11:48 PM, Franz.Dotter at UNI-KLU.AC.AT wrote:
Dear colleagues,
=20
Concerning DELEGS you have to add that "translate" is not the adequate
word here: DELEGS simply puts a German word into a SignWriting notation
of an adequate DGS sign. If you use a real German sentence, you create
pure Signed German. Only if you use a correct glossing of a signed
sentence (i.e. if you know how the grammar of DGS), you will get a
grammatically acceptable DGS sentence. Moreover, the face is enriched
with a full notation of the sounds of the German word used (not only a
possible mouthing).
Both systems, the Woehrmann-system of symbolising sounds within the
SignWriting face as well as DELEGS do have their merits for several
educational settings and I would not like to underscore the creative
work contained in them.
But: There is no TRANSLATION from anywhere to somewhere. As there are
some similar advertisements of "translation" in the context of sign
languages /cf. e.g. also http://www.pslt.org/), I'm a little bit
concerned about the result of such advertisements when people from
outside learn that all these announcemenst were not true. Please, tell
the linguistic truth!
=20
Best Regards
=20
Franz Dotter
=20
1. Now, there is new software from the University of Hamburg and C1 WPS
Workplace Solutions, called DELEGS, that coordinates with the SignPuddle
DGS dictionary, Stefan and other teachers of Deaf students in Germany,
can create documents that translate spoken language textbooks, into
written sign language, so their students can understand both languages
better and can grasp the content of the textbooks. So the German
SignPuddles online are geared towards Deaf Education, and are used with
this software:
DELEGS
http://www.delegs.com/delegseditor/
DELEGS stands for "German Learning with SignWriting" but in German of
course=E2=80=A6I believe it is "Deutsch lernen mit GebaerdenSchrift" (Ste=
fan and
others, please correct me if I am wrong ;-))
Anyway - that specific database is impressive for its educational
purpose=E2=80=A6
THANK YOU, to all of you, who have created DELEGS=E2=80=A6and thank you t=
o
Stefan Woehrmann for making this possible
=20
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<DIV>Dear Stefan and others,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I really estimate your approach to use creative means in order to =
teach German (or any other spoken language to deaf students). I'm only =
pleading for correct info. What disturbed me was Valeries sentence: "can =
create documents that translate spoken language textbooks, into written =
sign language". I think all agree that a formulation like: "the program =
can a) convert glossed sign language sentences into SignWriting, b) =
convert single written German words into DGS or Signed
Germanequivalen=
ts, given in SignWriting c) a written German sentence is converted =
word-by-word into DGS and Signed German equivalents, given in SignWriting,
=
by that offering a Signed German version of the original sentence". These =
achievements are great enough and many teachers will take them over =
gratefully; therefore we need not say "there is translation from German to
=
DGS".</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>To give an example: If you take a German sentence like "Ich werde =
gehen" =3D (I will go), you get the auxiliary verb "werden" also as a sign
=
(which is clearly Signed German; and has some pedagogical advanthge in =
some settings, but is not DGS)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Concerning the mouthings: I understand the difference between the =
full "Mundbildschrift" and the hints given in DELEGS/SignWriting now. But =
the fact remains that these hints do not represent default mouthings as =
they are used in DGS; they are still hints towards spoken language (to =
repeat: I do neither critisise this from a pedagocical nor from a =
bilingual perspective; I only want to state that these elements are not =
(Greman) sign language elements).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Best Regards</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Franz
>>> Stefan W=C3=B6hrmann<stefanwoehrmann at GEBA=
ERDENSCHRIFT.DE> 7/4/2012 11:46 >>>
</DIV>
<DIV class=3DSection1>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=3DEN-GB>He=
llo Valerie, Franz and everyone =E2=80=93 <o:p></o:p></SPAN>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=3DEN-GB><o=
:p> </o:p></SPAN>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=3DEN-GB>It=
is just as you say Valerie and I want to repeat that. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></=
FONT>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=3DEN-GB><o=
:p> </o:p></SPAN>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=3DEN-GB>De=
legs iss a wonderful tool to create bilingual materials and
=E2=80=9C</SPAN=
><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: black; FONT-WEIGHT:=
bold" lang=3DEN-GB>It depends on the skill of the writer (translator). It =
also depends on what the writer wants to do</SPAN>color=3Dblack><SPAN
style=3D"COLOR: black" lang=3DEN-GB>.=E2=80=9D<o:p></o:=
p></SPAN>
Roman"><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></SPAN>
Roman"><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" lang=3DEN-GB>So of =
course you can create translations from an idea expressed in spoken =
language to the same idea expressed in DGS. The wonderful thing is that =
you can rely on a written document which shows perfectly the writers idea =
how to sign this given concept or that shows how a given sign language =
performance can be translated to spoken language. <o:p></o:p></SPAN>=
Roman"><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></SPAN>
Roman"><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
lang=3DEN-GB>Unfortuna=
tely there is obviously a misunderstanding in your idea that the
=E2=80=9CM=
undbilder=E2=80=9D </SPAN>face=3DTahoma><SPAN
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt" lang=3DEN-GB>symbolise sounds within the SignWriting face =E2=80=93 =
they do not!!! <o:p></o:p></SPAN>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=3DEN-GB><=
o:p> </o:p></SPAN>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=3DEN-GB>W=
oehrmanns-speechwriting should not be mixed up with my invention of =
=E2=80=9CMundbildschrift=E2=80=9D a system that supports the articulation =
process in deaf students... <o:p></o:p></SPAN>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=3DEN-GB><=
o:p> </o:p></SPAN>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=3DEN-GB>T=
he =E2=80=9CMundbilder=E2=80=9D in SignWriting (GebaerdenSchrift) are =
simply meant to document mouth- tongue =E2=80=93 lip movements
=
- it is a guessing game like lipreading =E2=80=93 but including the =
information coming from your hands it is easy to understand.
<o:p></o:p></S=
PAN>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=3DEN-GB><=
o:p> </o:p></SPAN>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=3DEN-GB>O=
nce more =E2=80=93 Delegs - is a tool that allows anybody to create =
written documents of Sign language DGS, ASL, and spoken language. =
Why should this not be a translation? The scribe is just asked to write =
what he wants to write... smile. <o:p></o:p></SPAN>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=3DEN-GB><=
o:p> </o:p></SPAN>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=3DEN-GB>S=
tefan <o:p></o:p></SPAN>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=3DEN-GB><=
o:p> </o:p></SPAN>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt" lang=3DEN-GB><o:p> </o:p></SPAN>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=3DEN-GB><o:=
p> </o:p></SPAN>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=3DEN-GB><o:=
p> </o:p></SPAN>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=3DMsoNormal
align=3Dcenter>size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=3D-1 align=3Dcenter SIZE=3D2 width=3D"100%">
</SPAN></DIV>
<SPAN style=3D"FONT-FA=
MILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Von:</SPAN><FO=
NT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"> linguists interested in signed languages
[mailto:SLLING-L at LISTSERV.V=
ALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] <SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Im Auftrag von =
</SPAN>Valerie Sutton
<SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Gesendet:=
</SPAN> Mittwoch, 4. Juli 2012 16:03
<SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: =
bold">An:</SPAN> SLLING-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Betreff:</SPAN> Re: Antw: Re: SW-HamNoSys</=
SPAN><o:p></o:p></DIV>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Hello Franz and everyone
-<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FON=
T>
<DIV>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">It depends on the skill of the writer
(translator=
). It also depends on what the writer wants to do.<o:p></o:p></SPAN>=
</DIV>
<DIV>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">If the software is used without a knowledge of =
sign languages, and how to translate, then you are right that any software
=
and any writing system can be used incorrectly.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P=
></DIV>
<DIV>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">But a translator who knows sign languages and =
spoken languages well, and knows how to translate between the languages, =
and knows how to use the SignWriting-related software to produce good =
translations, can produce linguistically correct documents using any =
SignWriting-related software.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">In the case of SignPuddle, we have an Editor =
called the SignText Editor. In the SignText Editor we can write directly =
in sign languages without any connection to spoken languages. We can also =
then save each individual sign within a sign language document, into a =
dictionary, which can then be accessed by DELEGS
software.<o:p></o:p></SPAN=
></DIV>
<DIV>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Inside DELEGS software, the writer can then =
write the gloss for the sign language sentences that will access or bring =
in the signs from the special SignPuddle file created for the
work=E2=80=A6=
so the writer in DELEGS is not required to do Signed German - a
translation=
that provides proper spoken German and proper DGS can be created using a =
combination of SignPuddle's SignText Editor, SignPuddle dictionaries, and =
the DELEG's Editor.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I know the DELEGs developers are planning to =
produce their own Editor in time, but at the moment, this is how it is =
being done=E2=80=A6<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Val ;-)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">-----------<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">On Jul 3, 2012, at 11:48 PM,
_anz.Dotter at UNI-KLU.AC.AT">Franz.Dotter at UNI-KLU.AC.AT_ (mip://0b837180/3D"mailto:Fr=<BR)
wrote:<o:p></o:p><=
/SPAN></DIV>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<o:p></o:p></SPAN>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 3pt 3pt 0.75pt">
<DIV>
<SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMIL=
Y: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dear colleagues,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></=
DIV>
<DIV>
<SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMIL=
Y: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMIL=
Y: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Concerning DELEGS you have to add that =
"translate" is not the adequate word here: DELEGS simply puts a =
German word into a SignWriting notation of an adequate DGS sign. If you =
use a real German sentence, you create pure Signed German. Only if =
you use a correct glossing of a signed sentence (i.e. if you know how the =
grammar of DGS), you will get a grammatically acceptable DGS =
sentence. Moreover, the face is enriched with a full notation of the =
sounds of the German word used (not only a possible
mouthing).<o:p></o:p></=
SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMIL=
Y: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Both systems, the Woehrmann-system of =
symbolising sounds within the SignWriting face as well as DELEGS do have =
their merits for several educational settings and I would not like to =
underscore the creative work contained in them.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P=
></DIV>
<DIV>
<SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMIL=
Y: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">But: There is no TRANSLATION from anywhere to =
somewhere. As there are some similar advertisements of "translation" =
in the context of sign languages /cf. e.g. also
_org/">http://www.pslt.org/_ (mip://0b837180/3D"http://www.pslt.=<BR) ), I'm a little bit concerned
about the =
result of such advertisements when people from outside learn that all =
these announcemenst were not true. Please, tell the linguistic
truth!<o:p><=
/o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMIL=
Y: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMIL=
Y: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Best Regards<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>=
<DIV>
<SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMIL=
Y: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMIL=
Y: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Franz Dotter<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>=
<DIV>
<FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMIL=
Y: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
face=3DTahoma><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
1. =
Now, there is new software from the University of Hamburg and C1 WPS =
Workplace Solutions, called DELEGS, that coordinates with the SignPuddle =
DGS dictionary, Stefan and other teachers of Deaf students in Germany, can
=
create documents that translate spoken language textbooks, into written =
sign language, so their students can understand both languages better and =
can grasp the content of the textbooks. So the German SignPuddles online =
are geared towards Deaf Education, and are used with this software:
=
DELEGS
_http://www.delegs=
.com/delegseditor/_
(mip://0b837180/3D"http://www.delegs.com/delegseditor/")
DELEGS stands for "German Learning with =
SignWriting" but in German of course=E2=80=A6I believe it is "Deutsch =
lernen mit GebaerdenSchrift" (Stefan and others, please correct me if I am
=
wrong ;-))
Anyway - that specific database is impressive for its =
educational purpose=E2=80=A6
THANK YOU, to all of you, who have =
created DELEGS=E2=80=A6and thank you to Stefan Woehrmann for making this =
possible<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></DIV></DIV></=
BODY>
--=__Part6947DE8E.1__=--
--=__Part6947DE8E.0__=--
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 05:15:38 -0400
From: Stefan W=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=B6hrmann?=
<stefanwoehrmann at GEBAERDENSCHRIFT.DE>
Subject: Re: AW: Antw: Re: SW-HamNoSys
Hi Franz and everyone,
maybe that I do not understand your point. If I sign to my deaf student in
DGS and ask him to translate this and to write this in German he is asked
to
write the sentence or question in spoken language with correct grammar and
spelling.
Now I do not sign but offer the same message in a written form. With this
brilliant new software Delegs we can take signs from the SignPuddle
dictionary and can create DGS documents in order to support the deaf
student
to improve spoken language skills.
Hearing can practice ad improve DGS as well ...
There are different steps within this curriculum. Very often I offer in the
beginning exact signed German written in GebaerdenSchrift / Sutton
SignWriting including the mouthings.
Well the mouthings are so important. Not only in exact signed German (LBG)
"...But the fact remains that these hints do not represent default
mouthings
as they are used in DGS;"
Well from my point of view and after looking at soooo many DGS performances
I disagree. In DGS these mouthings are very much part of DGS.
Without these information it is not easy to understand.. smile. And of
course beside these mouthings that represent at least a part of a German
word we can see mouth-gesture - ... no problem with that. Valerie Suton
offers lots of options to document these non manual hints.
All best
Stefan
On Thu, 5 Jul 2012 08:35:10 +0200, Franz.Dotter at UNI-KLU.AC.AT wrote:
>Dear Stefan and others,
>
>I really estimate your approach to use creative means in order to teach
>German (or any other spoken language to deaf students). I'm only
>pleading for correct info. What disturbed me was Valeries sentence: "can
>create documents that translate spoken language textbooks, into written
>sign language". I think all agree that a formulation like: "the program
>can a) convert glossed sign language sentences into SignWriting, b)
>convert single written German words into DGS or Signed
>Germanequivalents, given in SignWriting c) a written German sentence is
>converted word-by-word into DGS and Signed German equivalents, given in
>SignWriting, by that offering a Signed German version of the original
>sentence". These achievements are great enough and many teachers will
>take them over gratefully; therefore we need not say "there is
>translation from German to DGS".
>
>To give an example: If you take a German sentence like "Ich werde
>gehen" = (I will go), you get the auxiliary verb "werden" also as a sign
>(which is clearly Signed German; and has some pedagogical advanthge in
>some settings, but is not DGS)
>
>Concerning the mouthings: I understand the difference between the full
>"Mundbildschrift" and the hints given in DELEGS/SignWriting now. But the
>fact remains that these hints do not represent default mouthings as they
>are used in DGS; they are still hints towards spoken language (to
>repeat: I do neither critisise this from a pedagocical nor from a
>bilingual perspective; I only want to state that these elements are not
>(Greman) sign language elements).
>
>Best Regards
>
>Franz
>
>>>> Stefan Wöhrmann<stefanwoehrmann at GEBAERDENSCHRIFT.DE> 7/4/2012 11:46
>>>>
>
>Hello Valerie, Franz and everyone –
>
>It is just as you say Valerie and I want to repeat that.
>
>Delegs iss a wonderful tool to create bilingual materials and “It
>depends on the skill of the writer (translator). It also depends on what
>the writer wants to do.”
>
>So of course you can create translations from an idea expressed in
>spoken language to the same idea expressed in DGS. The wonderful thing
>is that you can rely on a written document which shows perfectly the
>writers idea how to sign this given concept or that shows how a given
>sign language performance can be translated to spoken language.
>
>Unfortunately there is obviously a misunderstanding in your idea that
>the “Mundbilder” symbolise sounds within the SignWriting face – they
>do not!!!
>
>Woehrmanns-speechwriting should not be mixed up with my invention of
>“Mundbildschrift” a system that supports the articulation process in
>deaf students...
>
>The “Mundbilder” in SignWriting (GebaerdenSchrift) are simply meant to
>document mouth- tongue – lip movements - it is a guessing game like
>lipreading – but including the information coming from your hands it is
>easy to understand.
>
>Once more – Delegs - is a tool that allows anybody to create written
>documents of Sign language DGS, ASL, and spoken language. Why should
>this not be a translation? The scribe is just asked to write what he
>wants to write... smile.
>
>Stefan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Von: linguists interested in signed languages
>[mailto:SLLING-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] Im Auftrag von Valerie
>Sutton
>Gesendet: Mittwoch, 4. Juli 2012 16:03
>An: SLLING-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
>Betreff: Re: Antw: Re: SW-HamNoSys
>
>
>Hello Franz and everyone -
>
>
>
>It depends on the skill of the writer (translator). It also depends on
>what the writer wants to do.
>
>
>
>If the software is used without a knowledge of sign languages, and how
>to translate, then you are right that any software and any writing
>system can be used incorrectly.
>
>
>
>But a translator who knows sign languages and spoken languages well,
>and knows how to translate between the languages, and knows how to use
>the SignWriting-related software to produce good translations, can
>produce linguistically correct documents using any SignWriting-related
>software.
>
>
>
>In the case of SignPuddle, we have an Editor called the SignText
>Editor. In the SignText Editor we can write directly in sign languages
>without any connection to spoken languages. We can also then save each
>individual sign within a sign language document, into a dictionary,
>which can then be accessed by DELEGS software.
>
>
>
>Inside DELEGS software, the writer can then write the gloss for the
>sign language sentences that will access or bring in the signs from the
>special SignPuddle file created for the work…so the writer in DELEGS is
>not required to do Signed German - a translation that provides proper
>spoken German and proper DGS can be created using a combination of
>SignPuddle's SignText Editor, SignPuddle dictionaries, and the DELEG's
>Editor.
>
>
>
>I know the DELEGs developers are planning to produce their own Editor
>in time, but at the moment, this is how it is being done…
>
>
>
>Val ;-)
>
>
>
>-----------
>
>
>
>
>
>On Jul 3, 2012, at 11:48 PM, Franz.Dotter at UNI-KLU.AC.AT wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>Dear colleagues,
>
>
>
>Concerning DELEGS you have to add that "translate" is not the adequate
>word here: DELEGS simply puts a German word into a SignWriting notation
>of an adequate DGS sign. If you use a real German sentence, you create
>pure Signed German. Only if you use a correct glossing of a signed
>sentence (i.e. if you know how the grammar of DGS), you will get a
>grammatically acceptable DGS sentence. Moreover, the face is enriched
>with a full notation of the sounds of the German word used (not only a
>possible mouthing).
>
>Both systems, the Woehrmann-system of symbolising sounds within the
>SignWriting face as well as DELEGS do have their merits for several
>educational settings and I would not like to underscore the creative
>work contained in them.
>
>But: There is no TRANSLATION from anywhere to somewhere. As there are
>some similar advertisements of "translation" in the context of sign
>languages /cf. e.g. also http://www.pslt.org/), I'm a little bit
>concerned about the result of such advertisements when people from
>outside learn that all these announcemenst were not true. Please, tell
>the linguistic truth!
>
>
>
>Best Regards
>
>
>
>Franz Dotter
>
>
>
>
>1. Now, there is new software from the University of Hamburg and C1 WPS
>Workplace Solutions, called DELEGS, that coordinates with the SignPuddle
>DGS dictionary, Stefan and other teachers of Deaf students in Germany,
>can create documents that translate spoken language textbooks, into
>written sign language, so their students can understand both languages
>better and can grasp the content of the textbooks. So the German
>SignPuddles online are geared towards Deaf Education, and are used with
>this software:
>
>DELEGS
>http://www.delegs.com/delegseditor/
>
>DELEGS stands for "German Learning with SignWriting" but in German of
>course…I believe it is "Deutsch lernen mit GebaerdenSchrift" (Stefan and
>others, please correct me if I am wrong ;-))
>
>Anyway - that specific database is impressive for its educational
>purpose…
>
>THANK YOU, to all of you, who have created DELEGS…and thank you to
>Stefan Woehrmann for making this possible
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 07:34:56 -0700
From: Valerie Sutton <sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG>
Subject: Re: Antw: Re: SW-HamNoSys
--Apple-Mail=_7D90FF0B-861D-45CB-B5EF-1960E3E6D156
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=windows-1252
Hello Franz -
I want you to know I appreciate this conversation, and I am sorry if I =
said something that disturbed you -
And thank you for pointing out Stefan's creative use of these tools in =
his classroom - Stefan is a remarkable teacher of Deaf children and is =
very creative indeed ;-)
DELEGS is software that is dependent on glosses - I never even thought =
about that, but that is true...
SignPuddle is not dependent on glosses. In SignText, I and others write =
directly in the movements of sign languages without ever using any gloss =
system or thinking in a spoken language=85
However, other SignPuddle users do use glosses to compose their =
documents - so it depends on the writer=85SignPuddle has both options...
So please tell me how I can correct my description of the process - I =
want to say it correctly=85 Perhaps it is the term "translation" that =
has a different meaning in the linguistics profession, that I do not =
understand? We have a Translate Feature in SignPuddle that is based on =
glosses, so we have used that term freely...
Val ;-)
--------
On Jul 4, 2012, at 11:35 PM, Franz.Dotter at UNI-KLU.AC.AT wrote:
> Dear Stefan and others,
> =20
> I really estimate your approach to use creative means in order to =
teach German (or any other spoken language to deaf students). I'm only =
pleading for correct info. What disturbed me was Valeries sentence: "can =
create documents that translate spoken language textbooks, into written =
sign language". I think all agree that a formulation like: "the program =
can a) convert glossed sign language sentences into SignWriting, b) =
convert single written German words into DGS or Signed =
Germanequivalents, given in SignWriting c) a written German sentence is =
converted word-by-word into DGS and Signed German equivalents, given in =
SignWriting, by that offering a Signed German version of the original =
sentence". These achievements are great enough and many teachers will =
take them over gratefully; therefore we need not say "there is =
translation from German to DGS".
> =20
> To give an example: If you take a German sentence like "Ich werde =
gehen" =3D (I will go), you get the auxiliary verb "werden" also as a =
sign (which is clearly Signed German; and has some pedagogical advanthge =
in some settings, but is not DGS)
> =20
> Concerning the mouthings: I understand the difference between the full =
"Mundbildschrift" and the hints given in DELEGS/SignWriting now. But the =
fact remains that these hints do not represent default mouthings as they =
are used in DGS; they are still hints towards spoken language (to =
repeat: I do neither critisise this from a pedagocical nor from a =
bilingual perspective; I only want to state that these elements are not =
(Greman) sign language elements).
> =20
> Best Regards
> =20
> Franz
>=20
> >>> Stefan W=F6hrmann<stefanwoehrmann at GEBAERDENSCHRIFT.DE> 7/4/2012 =
11:46 >>>
> Hello Valerie, Franz and everyone =96
> =20
> It is just as you say Valerie and I want to repeat that.
> =20
> Delegs iss a wonderful tool to create bilingual materials and =93It =
depends on the skill of the writer (translator). It also depends on what =
the writer wants to do.=94
> =20
> So of course you can create translations from an idea expressed in =
spoken language to the same idea expressed in DGS. The wonderful thing =
is that you can rely on a written document which shows perfectly the =
writers idea how to sign this given concept or that shows how a given =
sign language performance can be translated to spoken language.
> =20
> Unfortunately there is obviously a misunderstanding in your idea that =
the =93Mundbilder=94 symbolise sounds within the SignWriting face =96 =
they do not!!!
> =20
> Woehrmanns-speechwriting should not be mixed up with my invention of =
=93Mundbildschrift=94 a system that supports the articulation process in =
deaf students...
> =20
> The =93Mundbilder=94 in SignWriting (GebaerdenSchrift) are simply =
meant to document mouth- tongue =96 lip movements - it is a guessing =
game like lipreading =96 but including the information coming from your =
hands it is easy to understand.
> =20
> Once more =96 Delegs - is a tool that allows anybody to create =
written documents of Sign language DGS, ASL, and spoken language. Why =
should this not be a translation? The scribe is just asked to write what =
he wants to write... smile.
> =20
> Stefan
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> Von: linguists interested in signed languages =
[mailto:SLLING-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] Im Auftrag von Valerie =
Sutton
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 4. Juli 2012 16:03
> An: SLLING-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
> Betreff: Re: Antw: Re: SW-HamNoSys
> =20
> Hello Franz and everyone -
> =20
> It depends on the skill of the writer (translator). It also depends on =
what the writer wants to do.
> =20
> If the software is used without a knowledge of sign languages, and how =
to translate, then you are right that any software and any writing =
system can be used incorrectly.
> =20
> But a translator who knows sign languages and spoken languages well, =
and knows how to translate between the languages, and knows how to use =
the SignWriting-related software to produce good translations, can =
produce linguistically correct documents using any SignWriting-related =
software.
> =20
> In the case of SignPuddle, we have an Editor called the SignText =
Editor. In the SignText Editor we can write directly in sign languages =
without any connection to spoken languages. We can also then save each =
individual sign within a sign language document, into a dictionary, =
which can then be accessed by DELEGS software.
> =20
> Inside DELEGS software, the writer can then write the gloss for the =
sign language sentences that will access or bring in the signs from the =
special SignPuddle file created for the work=85so the writer in DELEGS =
is not required to do Signed German - a translation that provides proper =
spoken German and proper DGS can be created using a combination of =
SignPuddle's SignText Editor, SignPuddle dictionaries, and the DELEG's =
Editor.
> =20
> I know the DELEGs developers are planning to produce their own Editor =
in time, but at the moment, this is how it is being done=85
> =20
> Val ;-)
> =20
> -----------
> =20
> =20
> On Jul 3, 2012, at 11:48 PM, Franz.Dotter at UNI-KLU.AC.AT wrote:
>=20
>=20
> Dear colleagues,
> =20
> Concerning DELEGS you have to add that "translate" is not the adequate =
word here: DELEGS simply puts a German word into a SignWriting notation =
of an adequate DGS sign. If you use a real German sentence, you create =
pure Signed German. Only if you use a correct glossing of a signed =
sentence (i.e. if you know how the grammar of DGS), you will get a =
grammatically acceptable DGS sentence. Moreover, the face is enriched =
with a full notation of the sounds of the German word used (not only a =
possible mouthing).
> Both systems, the Woehrmann-system of symbolising sounds within the =
SignWriting face as well as DELEGS do have their merits for several =
educational settings and I would not like to underscore the creative =
work contained in them.
> But: There is no TRANSLATION from anywhere to somewhere. As there are =
some similar advertisements of "translation" in the context of sign =
languages /cf. e.g. also http://www.pslt.org/), I'm a little bit =
concerned about the result of such advertisements when people from =
outside learn that all these announcemenst were not true. Please, tell =
the linguistic truth!
> =20
> Best Regards
> =20
> Franz Dotter
> =20
>=20
> 1. Now, there is new software from the University of Hamburg and C1 =
WPS Workplace Solutions, called DELEGS, that coordinates with the =
SignPuddle DGS dictionary, Stefan and other teachers of Deaf students in =
Germany, can create documents that translate spoken language textbooks, =
into written sign language, so their students can understand both =
languages better and can grasp the content of the textbooks. So the =
German SignPuddles online are geared towards Deaf Education, and are =
used with this software:
>=20
> DELEGS
> http://www.delegs.com/delegseditor/
>=20
> DELEGS stands for "German Learning with SignWriting" but in German of =
course=85I believe it is "Deutsch lernen mit GebaerdenSchrift" (Stefan =
and others, please correct me if I am wrong ;-))
>=20
> Anyway - that specific database is impressive for its educational =
purpose=85
>=20
> THANK YOU, to all of you, who have created DELEGS=85and thank you to =
Stefan Woehrmann for making this possible
>=20
> =20
--Apple-Mail=_7D90FF0B-861D-45CB-B5EF-1960E3E6D156
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
charset=windows-1252
<head><base href=3D"x-msg://72/"></head>break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space; ">Hello Franz -<div>I want you to know I appreciate =
this conversation, and I am sorry if I said something that disturbed you =
-</div><div>
</div><div>And thank you for pointing out Stefan's =
creative use of these tools in his classroom - Stefan is a remarkable =
teacher of Deaf children and is very creative indeed =
;-)</div><div>
</div><div>DELEGS is software that is dependent on =
glosses - I never even thought about that, but that is =
true...</div><div>
</div><div>SignPuddle is not dependent on glosses. =
In SignText, I and others write directly in the movements of sign =
languages without ever using any gloss system or thinking in a spoken =
language=85</div><div>
</div><div>However, other SignPuddle users do =
use glosses to compose their documents - so it depends on the =
writer=85SignPuddle has both options...</div><div>
</div><div>So =
please tell me how I can correct my description of the process - I want =
to say it correctly=85 Perhaps it is the term "translation" that has a =
different meaning in the linguistics profession, that I do not =
understand? We have a Translate Feature in SignPuddle that is based on =
glosses, so we have used that term =
freely...</div><div>
</div><div>Val =
;-)</div><div>
</div><div>--------</div><div>
</div><div>
</div><=
div>
</div><div>
</div><div>
</div><div>
</div><div>
<div><=
div>On Jul 4, 2012, at 11:35 PM,
href=3D"mailto:Franz.Dotter at UNI-KLU.AC.AT">Franz.Dotter at UNI-KLU.AC.AT =
wrote:</div>
<blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: =
separate; font-family: Arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div =
lang=3D"DE" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"blue" style=3D"margin-top: 4px; =
margin-right: 4px; margin-bottom: 1px; margin-left: 4px; font: normal =
normal normal 10pt/normal Tahoma; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div>Dear Stefan and others,</div><div> </div><div>I really =
estimate your approach to use creative means in order to teach German =
(or any other spoken language to deaf students). I'm only pleading for =
correct info. What disturbed me was Valeries sentence: "can create =
documents that translate spoken language textbooks, into written sign =
language". I think all agree that a formulation like: "the program can =
a) convert glossed sign language sentences into SignWriting, b) =
convert single written German words into DGS or Signed =
Germanequivalents, given in SignWriting c) a written German =
sentence is converted word-by-word into DGS and Signed German =
equivalents, given in SignWriting, by that offering a Signed German =
version of the original sentence". These achievements are great enough =
and many teachers will take them over gratefully; therefore we need not =
say "there is translation from German to =
DGS".</div><div> </div><div>To give an example: If you take a =
German sentence like "Ich werde gehen" =3D (I will go), you get the =
auxiliary verb "werden" also as a sign (which is clearly Signed German; =
and has some pedagogical advanthge in some settings, but is not =
DGS)</div><div> </div><div>Concerning the mouthings: I understand =
the difference between the full "Mundbildschrift" and the hints given in =
DELEGS/SignWriting now. But the fact remains that these hints do not =
represent default mouthings as they are used in DGS; they are still =
hints towards spoken language (to repeat: I do neither critisise =
this from a pedagocical nor from a bilingual perspective; I only want to =
state that these elements are not (Greman) sign language =
elements).</div><div> </div><div>Best =
Regards</div><div> </div><div>Franz
>>> Stefan =
W=F6hrmann<_style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline; =
">stefanwoehrmann at GEBAERDENSCHRIFT.DE_
(mip://0b837180/3D"mailto:stefanwoehrmann at GEBAERDENSCHRIFT.DE") > 7/4/2012 11:46 =
>>>
</div><div class=3D"Section1" style=3D"page: Section1; =
"><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family: Arial; color: black; font-size: =
10pt; ">Hello Valerie, Franz and everyone =
=96<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; =
margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">face=3D"Arial"><span
lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family: Arial; color: =
black; font-size: 10pt; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family: Arial; color: black; font-size: =
10pt; ">It is just as you say Valerie and I want to repeat =
that.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; =
margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">face=3D"Arial"><span
lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family: Arial; color: =
black; font-size: 10pt; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family: Arial; color: black; font-size: =
10pt; ">Delegs iss a wonderful tool to create bilingual materials and =
=93</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" =
style=3D"color: black; font-weight: bold; ">It depends on the skill of =
the writer (translator). It also depends on what the writer wants to =
do</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" =
style=3D"color: black; ">.=94<o:p></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'; ">Roman"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color: black; font-size:
12pt; =
"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; =
margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color: black; =
font-size: 12pt; ">So of course you can create translations from an idea =
expressed in spoken language to the same idea expressed in DGS. The =
wonderful thing is that you can rely on a written document which shows =
perfectly the writers idea how to sign this given concept or that shows =
how a given sign language performance can be translated to spoken =
language.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; =
margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color: black; =
font-size: 12pt; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'; ">Roman"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color: black; font-size:
12pt; =
">Unfortunately there is obviously a misunderstanding in your idea that =
the =93Mundbilder=94 </span>size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><span
lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family: =
Tahoma; color: black; font-size: 10pt; ">symbolise sounds within the =
SignWriting face =96 they do not!!!<o:p></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; color: black; font-size: =
10pt; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">size=3D"2"
face=3D"Tahoma"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family: =
Tahoma; color: black; font-size: 10pt; ">Woehrmanns-speechwriting should =
not be mixed up with my invention of =93Mundbildschrift=94 a system that =
supports the articulation process in deaf =
students...<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; =
margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">face=3D"Tahoma"><span
lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; =
color: black; font-size: 10pt; =
"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; =
margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">face=3D"Tahoma"><span
lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; =
color: black; font-size: 10pt; ">The =93Mundbilder=94 in SignWriting =
(GebaerdenSchrift) are simply meant to document mouth- tongue =96 lip =
movements - it is a guessing game like lipreading =96 but =
including the information coming from your hands it is easy to =
understand.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; =
margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">face=3D"Tahoma"><span
lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; =
color: black; font-size: 10pt; =
"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; =
margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">face=3D"Tahoma"><span
lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; =
color: black; font-size: 10pt; ">Once more =96 Delegs - is a tool =
that allows anybody to create written documents of Sign language DGS, =
ASL, and spoken language. Why should this not be a translation? =
The scribe is just asked to write what he wants to write... =
smile.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; =
margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">face=3D"Tahoma"><span
lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; =
color: black; font-size: 10pt; =
"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; =
margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">face=3D"Tahoma"><span
lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; =
color: black; font-size: 10pt; =
">Stefan<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; =
margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">face=3D"Tahoma"><span
lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; =
color: black; font-size: 10pt; =
"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; =
margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">New Roman"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; =
"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; =
margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">face=3D"Arial"><span
lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family: Arial; color: =
navy; font-size: 10pt; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-family: Arial; color: navy; font-size: =
10pt; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div><div class=3D"MsoNormal"=
align=3D"center" style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; =
margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman'; text-align: center; ">New Roman"><span
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; "><hr tabindex=3D"-1" =
align=3D"center" size=3D"2" width=3D"100%"></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'; "><span style=3D"font-family: =
Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; font-weight: bold; =
">Von:</span><span =
style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; "><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>linguists interested in =
signed languages [mailto:SLLING-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><span =
style=3D"font-weight: bold; ">Im Auftrag von<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Valerie =
Sutton
<span style=3D"font-weight: bold; =
">Gesendet:</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>Mittwoch, 4. Juli 2012 =
16:03
<span style=3D"font-weight: bold; ">An:</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>href=3D"mailto:SLLING-L at LISTSER
V.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU" style=3D"color: =
blue; text-decoration: underline; =
">SLLING-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
<span =
style=3D"font-weight: bold; ">Betreff:</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: Antw: Re: =
SW-HamNoSys</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">face=3D"Times New
Roman"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; =
"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; =
margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">New Roman"><span
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; ">Hello Franz and everyone =
-<o:p></o:p></span></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; =
margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">New Roman"><span
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; =
"><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; ">It depends on the skill of the writer =
(translator). It also depends on what the writer wants to =
do.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">face=3D"Times New
Roman"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; =
"><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; ">If the software is used without a knowledge =
of sign languages, and how to translate, then you are right that any =
software and any writing system can be used =
incorrectly.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; =
"><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; ">But a translator who knows sign languages =
and spoken languages well, and knows how to translate between the =
languages, and knows how to use the SignWriting-related software to =
produce good translations, can produce linguistically correct documents =
using any SignWriting-related =
software.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; =
"><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; ">In the case of SignPuddle, we have an Editor =
called the SignText Editor. In the SignText Editor we can write directly =
in sign languages without any connection to spoken languages. We can =
also then save each individual sign within a sign language document, =
into a dictionary, which can then be accessed by DELEGS =
software.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; =
"><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; ">Inside DELEGS software, the writer can then =
write the gloss for the sign language sentences that will access or =
bring in the signs from the special SignPuddle file created for the =
work=85so the writer in DELEGS is not required to do Signed German - a =
translation that provides proper spoken German and proper DGS can be =
created using a combination of SignPuddle's SignText Editor, SignPuddle =
dictionaries, and the DELEG's =
Editor.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top:=
0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">face=3D"Times New
Roman"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; =
"><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; ">I know the DELEGs developers are planning to =
produce their own Editor in time, but at the moment, this is how it is =
being done=85<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; =
"><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; ">Val =
;-)<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">face=3D"Times New
Roman"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; =
"><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; =
">-----------<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; =
"><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; =
"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin-top:=
0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">face=3D"Times New
Roman"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; ">On Jul 3, =
2012, at 11:48 PM,<span
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>href=3D"mailto:Franz.Dotter at UNI-KLU.AC.AT" style=3D"color: blue; =
text-decoration: underline; ">Franz.Dotter at UNI-KLU.AC.AT<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></fon=
t></div></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; =
margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman'; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; ">
<o:p></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 3pt; margin-right: 3pt; margin-bottom: 0.75pt; =
margin-left: 3pt; "><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: =
0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><span =
style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; ">Dear =
colleagues,<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'; "><span style=3D"font-family: =
Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; =
"> <o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'; "><span style=3D"font-family: =
Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; ">Concerning DELEGS you have to add that =
"translate" is not the adequate word here: DELEGS simply puts a =
German word into a SignWriting notation of an adequate DGS sign. If you =
use a real German sentence, you create pure Signed German. Only if =
you use a correct glossing of a signed sentence (i.e. if you know how =
the grammar of DGS), you will get a grammatically =
acceptable DGS sentence. Moreover, the face is enriched with a full =
notation of the sounds of the German word used (not only a possible =
mouthing).<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'; "><span style=3D"font-family: =
Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; ">Both systems, the Woehrmann-system of =
symbolising sounds within the SignWriting face as well as DELEGS do have =
their merits for several educational settings and I would not like to =
underscore the creative work contained in =
them.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">face=3D"Tahoma"><span
style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; =
">But: There is no TRANSLATION from anywhere to somewhere. As there =
are some similar advertisements of "translation" in the context of =
sign languages /cf. e.g. also<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>href=3D"http://www.pslt.org/"
style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: =
underline; ">http://www.pslt.org/), I'm a little bit concerned about =
the result of such advertisements when people from outside learn that =
all these announcemenst were not true. Please, tell the linguistic =
truth!<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">face=3D"Tahoma"><span
style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; =
"> <o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'; "><span style=3D"font-family: =
Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; ">Best =
Regards<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top:=
0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">face=3D"Tahoma"><span
style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; =
"> <o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'; "><span style=3D"font-family: =
Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; ">Franz =
Dotter<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">face=3D"Tahoma"><span
style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; =
"> <o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div>
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; =
margin-bottom: 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; =
"><span style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; =
font-size: 10pt; ">
1. Now, there is new software from the University =
of Hamburg and C1 WPS Workplace Solutions, called DELEGS, that =
coordinates with the SignPuddle DGS dictionary, Stefan and other =
teachers of Deaf students in Germany, can create documents that =
translate spoken language textbooks, into written sign language, so =
their students can understand both languages better and can grasp the =
content of the textbooks. So the German SignPuddles online are geared =
towards Deaf Education, and are used with this =
software:
DELEGS
_style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline; =
">http://www.delegs.com/delegseditor/_
(mip://0b837180/3D"http://www.delegs.com/delegseditor/"=<BR)
DELEGS stands for =
"German Learning with SignWriting" but in German of course=85I believe =
it is "Deutsch lernen mit GebaerdenSchrift" (Stefan and others, please =
correct me if I am wrong ;-))
Anyway - that specific database is =
impressive for its educational purpose=85
THANK YOU, to all of =
you, who have created DELEGS=85and thank you to Stefan Woehrmann for =
making this possible<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; =
"><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div></div></div></span></blockquo=
te></div>
</div>=
--Apple-Mail=_7D90FF0B-861D-45CB-B5EF-1960E3E6D156--
------------------------------
End of SLLING-L Digest - 4 Jul 2012 to 5 Jul 2012 (#2012-70)
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