[Tibeto-burman-linguistics] A question about numerals
Martine Mazaudon
mazaudon at vjf.cnrs.fr
Thu Dec 18 10:39:45 UTC 2014
Dear all,
About Randy's suggestion to use the MPI website for information, I want
to say that unfortunately the site has been conceived with a bias
towards decimal systems.
The questionaire provided does not let you enter information about other
systems (vigesimal for instance).
I mentioned this problem years ago to Dr Chan, but no space has been
provided in the site to accommodate other systems, which is why I have
not filled in the Tamang or Dzongkha information.
When I check the site today I see that Eastern Tamang is totally wrong.
I can tell you that it is a fully vigesimal system, and the decimal
forms provided on the site are a modern fabrication, done with the best
intentions of modernization and education in mind, but from our
documentation point of view, misguided, and (most important) not used by
speakers.
Some languages like Dzongkha have two parallel systems. The site lists
decimal forms only, with a brief mention: *"Other comments: *Dzhongkha
has a decimal system and an archaic numeral system based on twenty."
I have talked here only about the different bases that should be
recorded (e.g. vigesimal for Dzongkha) but other structural
peculiarities (fractional counting, overcounting) remain undocumented
also if some key numbers are not recorded (like 31,35, 36 and 400!).
The result of the decimal policy of the site is that the rarer systems
are not reported.
In our time, when decimal systems are fast gaining ground, it is too bad
that a scientific site should collude with governments and other
institutional bodies to help destroy the diversity of structures in
languages. As we all know, calques are one of the ways a language gets
"endangered from the inside".
I have dealt with these matters in publications which you can find on
academia.edu or Hal-SHS. I wish you all would help me in my
proselytizing in favor of the proper documentation of number systems:
record at least ALL numbers to 100, and try to prod for multiple
systems, appropriate to diverse circumstances, either sociolinguistic or
semantic, a diversity which brings us back to Gwen's original question.
https://www.academia.edu/3253865/Number_building_in_Tibeto-Burman_languages
https://www.academia.edu/3253848/Dzongkha_number_systems
Cheers
Martine
Le 18/12/2014 03:08, Randy LaPolla a écrit :
> One option, if you want to check the systems of particular languages,
> is to go through the lists on
> http://lingweb.eva.mpg.de/numeral/
>
> Randy
>
> On 17 Dec, 2014, at 6:24 pm, Gwendolyn Hyslop
> <gwendolyn.hyslop at gmail.com <mailto:gwendolyn.hyslop at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>> Dear Colleagues,
>>
>> Many thanks for such insightful responses! This is all very
>> interesting and Norihiko-san and Randy's comments put an interesting
>> spin on things and give me much to think about. If Randy -- or anyone
>> else -- has more details about the systems or forms in other
>> Tibeto-Burman languages I would be quite interested in references or
>> details. I'm especially wondering if there there any cognates out
>> there for /bleng/ and /gwâ/ (alternates with /gwak/, so probably the
>> more original form would be /gwak/).
>>
>> Gwen
>>
>>
>> On Dec 17, 2014, at 2:30 PM, HAYASHI NORIHIKO wrote:
>>
>>> I should add some information on Japanese.
>>>
>>> After posting the last email, I realized my information is somewhat
>>> misleading.
>>> The Japanese originated classifiers usually co-occur with the
>>> Japanese numerals under 'four'.
>>> If you wish to say 'five bags' or 'six bags', we usually use Kango
>>> numerals like 'go-hukuro' [five<CH>-CLF<J>], 'rop-pukuro'
>>> [six<CH>-CLF<J>].
>>>
>>> So, the native numeral in Japanese can be considered to be in
>>> limited use.
>>>
>>> Norihiko
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> *From:* HAYASHI NORIHIKO <jinozu at yahoo.co.jp
>>> <mailto:jinozu at yahoo.co.jp>>
>>> *To:* Randy LaPolla <randy.lapolla at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:randy.lapolla at gmail.com>>; Gwendolyn Lowes Hyslop
>>> <gwendolyn.hyslop at gmail.com <mailto:gwendolyn.hyslop at gmail.com>>
>>> *Cc:* The Tibeto-Burman Discussion List Discussion List
>>> <tibeto-burman-linguistics at listserv.linguistlist.org
>>> <mailto:tibeto-burman-linguistics at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
>>> *Date:* 2014/12/17, Wed 10:20
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Tibeto-burman-linguistics] A question about numerals
>>>
>>> Hello! Gwen-san and all!
>>>
>>> I think it is interesting to note that the numerals in Bhutanese
>>> languages also have
>>> two-way systems, one of which is borrowed from other language
>>> sources, as Prof. LaPolla said.
>>> In Modern Japanese, we generally use two-way system when
>>> counting from one to ten,
>>> and if the classifier is Japanese origin, the numeral should be
>>> also Japanese origin in general.
>>> If the classifier is Kango (Chinese) origin, the numeral should
>>> be also Chinese origin.
>>>
>>> 'one' iti <CH>/ hito <J>
>>> 'two' ni <CH>/ huta <J>
>>> 'three' san <CH>/ mi <J>
>>> .....
>>> 'ten' zyuu <CH>/ too <J>
>>>
>>> 'a piece of paper' iti-mai [one<CH>-CLF<CH>]
>>> 'a bag' hito-hukuro [one<J>-CLF<J>]
>>>
>>> Over 'ten', we generally use Kango originated numerals, though
>>> we used to have Japanese ones in former days.
>>>
>>> In Standard Thai, there are two kinds of 'one' and 'two', though
>>> their features are not similar to Japanese.
>>> The word for 'one' is nWng (Low tone) and for 'two' is sOOng
>>> (Rising tone).
>>> There are, however, the other words for 'one' and 'two', namely,
>>> et (Low tone) and yii (Falling tone) respectively.
>>> Et is used for 'twenty-one', 'thirty-one', ..., 'ninety-one',
>>> and yii is used for 'twenty', 'twenty-one', 'twenty-two', ...
>>> 'twenty-nine'.
>>> Both of them are Chinese origins as well as sOOng for 'two'.
>>>
>>> So, I think Kurtop system is somewhat similar to Japanese one
>>> rather than Thai.
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>>
>>> Norihiko
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> *From:* Randy LaPolla <randy.lapolla at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:randy.lapolla at gmail.com>>
>>> *To:* Gwendolyn Lowes Hyslop <gwendolyn.hyslop at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:gwendolyn.hyslop at gmail.com>>
>>> *Cc:* The Tibeto-Burman Discussion List Discussion List
>>> <tibeto-burman-linguistics at listserv.linguistlist.org
>>> <mailto:tibeto-burman-linguistics at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
>>> *Date:* 2014/12/17, Wed 09:21
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Tibeto-burman-linguistics] A question about
>>> numerals
>>>
>>> Hi Gwen,
>>> This is actually found in a number of languages in the
>>> family, though I don't have access to the information right
>>> now. It often implies there was a native system that was
>>> replaced by a borrowed one, as in Japanese and Thai.
>>>
>>> Randy
>>>
>>> On 17 Dec, 2014, at 7:08 am, Gwendolyn Hyslop
>>> <gwendolyn.hyslop at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:gwendolyn.hyslop at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Tibeto-Burmanists,
>>>>
>>>> In most languages of Bhutan I have looked at, I have found
>>>> special forms of the numbers 'one' and 'two' for
>>>> measurement contexts. For example, Kurtöp 'one' and 'two'
>>>> are /thê/ and /zon/ unless counting things like containers
>>>> (/bre, phuya, /etc.) of grain, points in archery, distance
>>>> measured by fingers, hands, bodies, etc. In those contexts
>>>> 'one' and 'two' are /bleng/ and /gwâ/. I believe a similar
>>>> system is also in Tibetan as well as in other Bhutanese
>>>> languages, although the forms do not appear to be cognate
>>>> (Dzongkha /g'ang/ and /d'o, /for example)/./ Although it
>>>> is not exactly the same sort of system, I am also reminded
>>>> of the difference between the two Mandarin words for
>>>> 'two/'. (er2/ and /liang3/)
>>>>
>>>> So, my question to you: how widespread is this? Is it just
>>>> a Tibetan/Bhutan thing or is it more widespread than this?
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Gwen
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Tibeto-burman-linguistics mailing list
>>>> Tibeto-burman-linguistics at listserv.linguistlist.org
>>>> <mailto:Tibeto-burman-linguistics at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>>>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/tibeto-burman-linguistics
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Tibeto-burman-linguistics mailing list
>>> Tibeto-burman-linguistics at listserv.linguistlist.org
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
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--
Martine Mazaudon
Directeur de recherche au CNRS
LACITO
7 rue Guy Moquet
94800 Villejuif, FRANCE
Tel. (33)-(0)1-49 58 37 56
some publications can be found at:
http://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr
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