masculine/feminine

[David Bowie]

From:    RonButters at AOL.COM
> In a message dated 1/25/06 6:39:43 PM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU
> writes:

>> i think we're talking at cross-purposes here.=A0 David Bowie's
>> observation is, i think, correct: for lots=A0 of people, the
>> centerpiece of normative masculinity is desire for women (and not
>> men); as a result, for these people, any gay man, no matter how
>> many masculinity points he gets on all other counts, falls short of
>> being a "real man".

> I was suggesting that David Bowie (or, more likely,Boondocks) was
> using "masuclinity" in a way that does not match up with the social
> reality.

> A guy who wants to have sex with women but is effeminate in speech
> and gestures would certainly be perceived as "falling short of being
> a 'real man=', perhaps especially in the 21st Century--as opposed to
> when Arnold and In were youths, though even in that day it was
> possible to be "masculine" and still have sex with men so long as one
> was the inserter rather than the insertee. Sexual preference is
> obviously related obliquely to perceived gender roles (i.e.,
> masculinity and femininity), but precisely because (1) sexual
> preference is covert and such things as mannerisms and dress are
> overt, and (2)sexual preference is not a simple matter of "homosexual
> desire" versus "heterosexual desire," I would hesitate to call sexual
> preference "central" to the concept of masculinity. Indeed, the
> typical male heterosexual crossdresser is considered less masculine,
> I would venture, than the characters in BROKEBACK, who--in 1965 or
> whenever--do not even think of themselves as "queer"!

Well, yes all around--*except*.

I think you have to remember that we're not talking objective reality
here, we're talking subjective reality. I would venture that in many
people's subjective realities, male homosexual behaviors (or preferences
or tendencies) are inherently "non-masculine".[1] Most people aren't
going to spend a whole bunch of time around hyper-masculine homosexual
men and know at the same time that those men are homosexual; however,
pretty much everybody is in contact with effeminate homosexual men (even
if only through stereotypes, or from watching "Queer eye for the
straight guy" and "Will & Grace").

And, unfortunately, stereotypes rule most people's worlds--and even
though the main characters in "Brokeback Mountain" are certainly
masculine, a glance at a lot of the jokes out there referencing the
movie (well, aside from the 80% or so that claim to be jokes simply by
referring to it as "Bareback Mountain") don't treat the characters or
the movie as terribly masculine.

Of course, i brought all this up to find out if Aaron McGruder was
trying to start a new term (possibly to make people look like fools in
trying to use his "new slang"), or if he was simply reporting something
real. At this point, i think i'm gonna go with the former.

[1] I didn't write "feminine", BTW--i don't think it works that way.

--
David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
     Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
     house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
     chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.

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