antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
Dennis R. Preston
preston at MSU.EDU
Wed Oct 3 19:30:16 UTC 2007
Wudn jus Harris; plenty of such "r" usage, even in the British
influenced spelling of Korea names (e.g., all the poor guys named
'Park' who get called /park/ instead of /pak/).
dInIs
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>Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster: Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
>Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>I considered giving consideration to the work of Harris before I wrote
>and decided, "Fuck it. I'm not going to make any attempt to account
>for Harris's orthography, as opposed to the orthography here. Unless
>it can be shown that Harris's orthography set a standard that was
>followed by all other writers attempting to render into writing the BE
>dialects of their localities, Harris's orthography, which I've found
>not worth the effort to decipher, to the extent that I've read
>probably less than a paragraph of his work in the original, is
>irrelevant. Indeed, even if it could shown that Harris's work did set
>the orthographic standard, it can not be shown that every writer used
>it. It's not even true that current standard English, as native
>speakers write it, has a single, invariant orthography. I know what
>I've heard and, if I want to hear it again, right now, all that I have
>to do is to call Cudn Lois or fire up the right blues recording.
>
>That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
>
>-Wilson
>
>On 10/3/07, Dennis R. Preston <preston at msu.edu> wrote:
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>> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU>
>> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Wilson,
>>
>> It's very doubtful that this orthographic /r/ indicates a phonetic
>> one. In reading the JC Harris stories, for example, folk who don't
>> know southern speech interpret such things as Br'er Rabbit as BRY-er
>> or some such silliness. We know, of course, that it is is "brother"
>> (bruh) and that Harris was using the "r" to indicate vowel quality
>> (usually wedge or lengthening, as in "bar" in your quote I think, or
>> both).
>>
>> dInIs
>>
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>> >-----------------------
>> >Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> >Poster: Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
>> >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
>> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> >"When she say that, hit's 'Katy, bar _ther_ do',' then, _fer_ she's
>> >gwine _ter_ do it."
>> >
>> >I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE.
>> >
>> >Therefore, FWIW, I note that shwa [I spell it this way because I
>> >choose to] is replaced by shwa+r in this way in some fairly rare
>> >dialects of BE to this day. A ninety-ish cousin of mine from down home
>> >in Texas uses it and I've heard it used by the odd speaker/singer from
>> >bluesman to hiphopper. It sounds rather strange, hearing someone use
>> >an "r" where nobody else does, whereas the person doesn't use "r"
>> >where the standard, at least, does use one.`
>> >
>> >-Wilson
>> >
>> >
>> >On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer <bgzimmer at babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote:
>> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> >>-----------------------
>> >> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer <bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU>
>> >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
>> >>
>> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer <bgzimmer at ling.upenn.edu> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy,
> > >> > bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it.
>> >> > [HNP Doc ID 229263831]
>> >>
>> >> Sorry, missed some punctuation in there:
>> >>
>> >> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy,
>> >> bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --Ben Zimmer
>> >>
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>> >
>> >
>> >--
>> >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
>> >come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>> >-----
>> > -Sam'l Clemens
>> >
>> >------------------------------------------------------------
>> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dennis R. Preston
>> University Distinguished Professor
>> Department of English
>> 15C Morrill Hall
>> Michigan State University
>> East Lansing, MI 48824
>> 517-353-4736
>> preston at msu.edu
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>
>
>--
>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
>come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>-----
> -Sam'l Clemens
>
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>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
--
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himself [sic] in his own true character - that is, as an ignorant man
thinking, actively utilizing his small share of knowledge. Alfred
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Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of English
Morrill Hall 15-C
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA
Office: (517) 353-4736
Fax: (517) 353-3755
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