Rosa/rowz@

Wed Apr 23 03:50:54 UTC 2008

I'd say (1) "historically long" for your "long", since in most (not
all) American dialects, vowel length depends more on phonetic context
than on historical class, or at least as MUCH as historical class;
(2) yes, Tom, unless you're from some place like the Upper Midwest,
most "long" vowels ARE diphthongal, at least in citation form (lento
speech).  Certainly the vowels in NAME and COAT in most dialects.  If
you're living in New Jersey, you're familiar with dialects, like
mine, that have diphthongs for final /i u/ as in TREE and DO.  And a
lot of American historically "short" vowels can be diphthongal too,
in the South AND North.  In the South, in words like man,
triphthongal even.  And one of the classes I teach is in phonetics,
and I've been working with phonetic data since 1971.  If you like, I
can even show you sound spectrograms.  Sorry, that's just facts.  I'm
not putting you down, though I wonder why you argue the point when
there isn't a single soul who DOES work with phonetic data on this
list who agrees with you on this subject.  The most I'll concede to
you is that in rapid speech or in low-stress environments, underlying
diphthongs can get shortened to monophthongs, but all kinds of
exotica emerge under these conditions.  But in citation forms, the
sort of things you deal with with your dictionary representations?
No way.

Yours,
Paul Johnston
On Apr 22, 2008, at 6:09 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
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> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Rosa/rowz@
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------
>
> What do you mean "Why would I say something like that?  Why would
> you say "why would I say something like that?"
>
> I'm familiar enough with phonetics for my application.  I'm not a
> linguist, but anybody can gather much information from the internet
> on phonetics.
>
> People that reply to questions of interest with "go read a book"
> are in my opinion abusive, supplying no anwer, offering nothing but
> derision.
>
> Do you believe that all long vowels in USA English are diphthongs?
>
> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
> See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems"
> at authorhouse.com.
>
>
>
>
>
>> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:31:01 +0800
>> From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM
>> Subject: Re: Rosa/rowz@
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: LanDi Liu
>> Subject: Re: Rosa/rowz@
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----------
>>
>> Tom, honestly, why would you say something like that?
>>
>> And WHY are you so opposed to taking any phonetics courses, or even
>> reading even any of the most basic phonetics textbooks?
>>
>> WHY???
>>
>> Randy
>>
>> P.S. And if you're really going to take an attitude like that, WHY do
>> you have to do it here, of all places?
>>
>>
>> Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 9:30 AM, Tom Zurinskas  wrote:
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>>> Subject: Re: Rosa/rowz@
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -----------
>>>
>>> Why don't you take some classes and let us know what your teacher
>>> says. Remember, trust what your teacher says, not what you hear
>>> or think.
>>>
>>> And do you agree with MAM that all long vowels in American
>>> English are two-phthonged? Why don't you give us your own voice
>>> files as I have done here with qlippits to demonstrate. Or take a
>>> class and find out how.
>>>
>>>
>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
>>> See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional
>>> Poems" at authorhouse.com.
>>>
>>>> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 11:33:10 -0700
>>>> From: blukoff at ALVORD.COM
>>>> Subject: Re: Rosa/rowz@
>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>> -----------------------
>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>> Poster: Benjamin Lukoff
>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: Rosa/rowz@
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> ------------
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, 21 Apr 2008, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I don't believe off-glides are part of diphthongs such as
>>>>> for the long vowels. Off glides happen before some consonants
>>>>> and not
>>>>> before others. To me all long vowels sound like one-phthong not
>>>>> two.
>>>>> I'd be glad to hear words spoken in m-w.com that illustrate the
>>>>> difference.
>>>>
>>>> Where are you located? Perhaps a phonetics class at your local
>>>> university
>>>> would help.
>>>>
>>>> I also remember some IPA training software from the 90s which would
>>>> pronounce each sound alone and in context.
>>>>
>>>> Basically, the key is ear training.
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Randy Alexander
>> Jilin City, China
>>
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>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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