Odd rhyme claim

Thu Dec 17 02:47:18 UTC 2009

I don't understand why "patriot" spoken as PAY-tree-ought would have secondary stress on the ought.  I can say it without that.  What is stress anywhay?

Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL7+
see truespel.com phonetic spelling

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> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:58:48 -0500
> From: Berson at ATT.NET
> Subject: Re: Odd rhyme claim
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: "Joel S. Berson"
> Subject: Re: Odd rhyme claim
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> At 12/16/2009 12:21 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>As Alice says, for _patriot_ actually to "rhyme" with _thought_, there would
>>have to be a noticeable secondary stress on the final syllable plus a
>>unreduced or at least barely reduced vowel.
>
> That (I think!) is what I'm imagining I might hear here in
> Boston. And if we say pay-tree-AH-tik -- and the local assistant DA
> says dee-fen-DANT -- why not PAY-tree-OTT?
>
>
>>Here again is the stanza:
>>
>>Though loth to grieve
>>The evil time's sole patriot,
>>I cannot leave
>>My buried thought
>>For the priest's cant,
>>Or statesman's rant.
>>
>>Joel may be right: / at / ("ott") in both words. But / at / in _thought_
>>in Concord in 1847? Hard for me to imagine.
>
> Dunno. Is there an English or Irish dialect with that
> pronunciation? Did Emerson affect an English pronunciation? There
> were Irish immigrant workers camped at Walden Pond when the railroad
> was being built through there. The web tells me the Fitchburg
> railroad laid tracks past Walden the year before Thoreau took up
> residence, and he resided at Walden from 1845 to 1847.
>
> Joel
>
>
>>JL
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>>On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 11:56 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: "Joel S. Berson"
>>> Subject: Re: Odd rhyme claim
>>>
>>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> At 12/15/2009 11:00 PM, Jerome Foster wrote:
>>>>For a current example listen to Click and Clack, the Magliozzi brothers on
>>>>NPR.
>>>
>>> Do they say "ought" ("awt") -- which I can't relate to "patriot",
>>> even in New England, or "ott", as in the baseball player Mel -- which
>>> I can imagine in New England for both "patriot" and "thought"
>>> ("thott" -- the vowel a little like "cah" for "carr"?) I'll have to
>>> listen next Saturday.
>>>
>>> Joel
>>>
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: "Tom Zurinskas"
>>>>To:
>>>>Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 7:22 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: Odd rhyme claim
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>---------------------- Information from the mail
>>>>>header -----------------------
>>>>>Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>>>>>Subject: Re: Odd rhyme claim
>>>
>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---------------
>>>>>
>>>>>"Patriot" rhyming with thought" wouldn't work for me from Conn. but for
>>> my
>>>>>=
>>>>>neighbor from Mass it would. For her "ot" would be spoken "ought". The
>>>>>le=
>>>>>tter "o" often took the "awe" sound. She would call me ~Taumee (~au as
>>> in
>>>>>=
>>>>>"awe") and her son as ~Baubee (Bobby). This is over 40 years ago.
>>>>>
>>>>>Tom Zurinskas=2C USA - CT20=2C TN3=2C NJ33=2C FL7+=20
>>>>>see truespel.com phonetic spelling
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>>Date: Tue=2C 15 Dec 2009 16:27:28 -0500
>>>>>>From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM
>>>>>>Subject: Odd rhyme claim
>>>>>>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>---------------------- Information from the mail
>>>>>>header -----------------=
>>>>>------
>>>>>>Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>>Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>>>>>>Subject: Odd rhyme claim
>>>
>>>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----------=
>>>>>------
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>The poet John Hollander asserts that New England is "the only region of
>>>>>>t=
>>>>>he
>>>>>>nation" (or was in Emerson's time) "in whose dialect _patriot_ rhymes
>>>>>>wit=
>>>>>h
>>>>>>_thought_."
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>Really? I'd have guessed that _patriot_ "rhymes" with _thought_ nowhere
>>>>>>o=
>>>>>n
>>>>>>Panet Earth. Or is Hollander being facetious at Emerson's expense? Yeah=
>>>>>=2C
>>>>>>that must be it. Sorry.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>On the other hand....I'm curious.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>JL
>>>>>>=20
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>>
>>
>>--
>>"There You Go Again...Using Reason on the Planet of the Duck-Billed
>>Platypus"
>>
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