"Inside of a dog"
Dan Goncharoff
thegonch at GMAIL.COM
Mon May 3 21:06:21 UTC 2010
Roughing It
DanG
On 4/30/2010 9:20 PM, George Thompson wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society<ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster: George Thompson<george.thompson at NYU.EDU>
> Subject: Re: "Inside of a dog"
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>> While searching I came across a metaphorical expression about the
>> inside of a dog that was new to me: "as black as the inside of a dog."
>>
> I use the expression "dark as the inside of a cow", which, I'm quite sure, I picked up from Mark Twain, though I can't say what book.
>
> GAT
>
> George A. Thompson
> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Garson O'Toole<adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
> Date: Friday, April 30, 2010 8:50 pm
> Subject: Re: "Inside of a dog"
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>
>
>> Many thanks to Jonathan Lighter for checking the 1974 citation. Some
>> Groucho Marx quotes may be difficult to verify definitively without
>> databases of transcripts for radio and television shows.
>>
>> While searching I came across a metaphorical expression about the
>> inside of a dog that was new to me: "as black as the inside of a dog."
>> Why this particular mammal was selected to illustrate the difficulty
>> of photons reaching the interior of an object I do not know. By 1907
>> the expression was already ornate:
>>
>> Citation: 1907 July 31, Punch, Our Booking Office, Page 90, Punch
>> Publications Ltd.
>>
>> … dark as the inside of a black dog shut up in a coal cellar …
>>
>> http://books.google.com/books?id=MgkIAQAAIAAJ&q=%22dog+shut%22#v=snippet&
>>
>> No wonder it was difficult to read in there.
>>
>> Garson
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 8:06 AM, Jonathan Lighter
>> <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society<ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter<wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>>> Subject: Re: "Inside of a dog"
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Garson, the article is as you describe it. Smith describes the show:
>>>
>>> "Like words, the show was full of surprises. The walls talked. Everywhere
>>> there were words, black and white on the walls, some of them stuck
>>>
>> up just
>>
>>> for the sheer fascinating imagery of them."
>>>
>>> He found the "dog" quip, attributed to Groucho Marx, right up there
>>>
>> with
>>
>>> "Tiger, Tiger burning bright,/ In the forests of the night," "Western
>>> Wind," "Remember the a la mode!" (from a Texas menu), the etymology
>>>
>> of
>>
>>> _daisy_, elephant jokes and, as they say, so much more.
>>>
>>>
>>> JL
>>> On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 2:48 AM, Garson O'Toole
>>> <adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>> -----------------------
>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society<ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>> Poster: Garson O'Toole<adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
>>>> Subject: Re: "Inside of a dog"
>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> It looks like the Los Angeles Times dated 1974 January 28 has a review
>>>> by Jack Smith titled "A Fascinating Play on Words". The review seems
>>>> to be for the "Word Show" production mentioned in "The Art Museum as
>>>> Educator" book. The review contains the dog joke and attributes it
>>>>
>> to
>>
>>>> Groucho. I cannot check this cite in a full-database or on microfilm
>>>> right now that is why I am using the lame phrase "looks like". The
>>>> excerpt below is from a Google News archive search and the LA Times
>>>> synopsis:
>>>>
>>>> I drove up to Barnsdall Park the other afternoon for a look at what
>>>> the Junior Arts Center calls its Word Show--An Experience in the
>>>> Possibilities of Language. ...
>>>> ... Outside of a dog a book is man's best friend because inside of
>>>>
>> a
>>
>>>> dog it's too dark to read. Groucho.
>>>>
>>>> http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=%22cause+inside+of+a+dog%
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 2:10 AM, Garson O'Toole
>>>> <adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>
>>>> -----------------------
>>>>
>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society<ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>> Poster: Garson O'Toole<adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
>>>>> Subject: Re: "Inside of a dog"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>> YBQ has a version attributed to Groucho Marx in the Washington
>>>>>
>> Post in
>>
>>>>> 1989 and a slightly earlier attribution to Groucho in a Usenet posing
>>>>> dated 1987 September 15.
>>>>>
>>>>> A quick search in Google Books finds a match to a book with a 1978
>>>>> copyright that attributes the joke to Groucho Marx. The wording is
>>>>> slightly different and the book says the joke was used in a show
>>>>>
>> in
>>
>>>>> 1974:
>>>>>
>>>>> Citation: 1978, The Art Museum as Educator edited by Barbara Y.
>>>>> Newsom, Adele Z. Silver, Page 369, University of California Press.
>>>>> (Google Books limited view)
>>>>>
>>>>> "The Word Show," January through March 1974, was a cooperative venture
>>>>> of the staff artists and the gallery's curator. The result was a
>>>>>
>> wild
>>
>>>>> and educational exhibit based on the origin, form, peversity, and
>>>>> delight of words. It was full of verbal and visual puns, jokes,
>>>>> riddles, and images. For example, from Groucho Marx,
>>>>> Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend because
>>>>> inside of a dog is too dark to read.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://books.google.com/books?id=xbG_W0mevmIC&q=Groucho#v=snippet&
>>>>>
>>>>> Groucho died in 1977. I will look some more for a better citation
>>>>>
>> when
>>
>>>>> I have some time, or another list member may do so.
>>>>>
>>>>> Garson
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 12:04 AM, Laurence Horn<laurence.horn at yale.edu>
>>>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>>
>>>> -----------------------
>>>>
>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society<ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>>> Poster: Laurence Horn<laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>>>>>> Subject: "Inside of a dog"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>>> I've always been fond of the apothegm in question--
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog,
>>>>>>
>> it's
>>
>>>>>> too dark to read."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> that I assumed was indeed uttered/written by Groucho Marx.
>>>>>>
>> There was
>>
>>>>>> always that question of whether "inside of a dog" is really truly
>>>>>> possible, but on balance, it's still an immortal line. Only maybe
>>>>>> it's not Groucho's after all?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm at the Seattle airport at the moment, where there doesn't
>>>>>>
>> seem to
>>
>>>>>> be a copy of Fred's YBOQ on hand, but what struck me is that a recent
>>>>>> addition to the "Cognitive Science looks at canines" bookshelf,
>>>>>> _Inside of a Dog: What Dogs See, Smell, and Know_ (by Alexandra
>>>>>> Horowitz, Scribner, 2009) indicates that the eponymous epigraph
>>>>>>
>> is
>>
>>>>>> "attributed to Groucho Marx", which leads my Gricean antennae to
>>>>>> infer a lack of success on Horowitz's part in pinning down an actual
>>>>>> source. (Not that any of the amazon reviewers shy away from crediting
>>>>>> Groucho for it.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Are there any definitive takes on this one?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> LH
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>>>
>> truth."
>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>
>>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
More information about the Ads-l
mailing list