origin of dese dem dose in NYCE

[Paul Johnston]

Certainly not in NYC vowels, or not without reinforcement from other groups.  As for [@i]:

1.  The [@i] in bird etc. might conceivably have come from either Dutch <ui> = [œY~æY] or <eu> = [øY]--except that Dutch <ui, uy> is usually taken in as [aI] (it is Spuyten Duyvil = [spaItn daIvl], isn't it?  At least, that's how this suburban boy learned it; cf. the usual pronunciation of Stuyvesant, Schuyler etc.).  Jersey Dutch texts spell it [a"u], and it isn't clear what that means--but it looks like [EY] or [æY], the latter being common in broad Amsterdam of the present day.  Closer to [aI] than [@i] in any case.

> 2.  The diphthongal reflexes of <eu> = [ø:~øy] can't be a source either.  For one, the diphthongal reflexes of the high-mid vowels, I think, came about later than the 17c.  For two, Breukelen became Brooklyn with [U].  I've heard New Yorkers pronounce Modern Dutch <eu> with [@r] in personal names (my dad had a Dutch colleague named Van Heukelom, which was [væn   h at rk@l at m] to him however.

3.  In Hollandic of the present day, certain /Vr/ combinations--but only in final position--have a strongly palatalized approximant /r/, which can turn into an /i/ in broad vernacular varieties.  This certainly affects /a:r/, /o:r/ and /u:r/, and I think [ø:r] too.  But (1) this is another recent change--it's not even in the 20th c. dialect atlases--or at least not the Reeks Nederlandse Dialektatlassen; and (2) final position is precisely NOT where you get [@i].  Instead you get [^:].

4.  The only expression I can think of with real good NY Dutch vowels is Santa Claus, from Zeelandic [sEnt@ klO:s] rather than Std Dutch [sInt@ kla:s].

Paul Johnston
On Feb 13, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Michael Newman wrote:

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> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Michael Newman <michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Can you find any other evidence of Dutch or German influence outside of lexicon?
> Michael Newman
> Associate Professor of Linguistics
> Queens College/CUNY
> michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu
> 
> 
> 
> On Feb 13, 2012, at 6:01 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
> 
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>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at GMAIL.COM>
>> Subject:      Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>> OTOH, the non-Dutch theory suffers from concluding that, although
>> Dutch and German were a dominant foreign language in NYC from the
>> beginnings of New Amsterdam through the 19th Century up to the General
>> Slocum disaster and WWI, they are thought to have no influence
>> whatsoever.
>> DanG
>> who wonders what accent the German-born John Jacob Astor spoke...
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:54 AM, Jonathan Lighter
>> <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
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>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>>> Subject:      Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> 
>>> The "Dutch" theory and others suffer fatally from the double
>>> assumption that there was just one determining factor (a particular
>>> foreign language or earlier English dialect) and that a little
>>> reflection and "common sense" will identify it.
>>> 
>>> JL
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Ronald Butters <ronbutters at aol.com> wrote:
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>> Poster:       Ronald Butters <ronbutters at AOL.COM>
>>>> Subject:      Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> 
>>>> This vowel is also heard in New Orleans, and among older Black speakers =
>>>> in the South. Not too bloody likely that the Dutch had much to do with =
>>>> it.
>>>> 
>>>> On Feb 13, 2012, at 10:23 AM, James A. Landau wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> There is a stereotype that people from Brooklyn pronounce /@r/ as /oi/ =
>>>> or /ui/.
>>>>> ("toidy-toid and toid avenue").
>>>>> =20
>>>>> Could this be, contrary to your statement above, a holdover from Dutc
>>>> 
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