origin of dese dem dose in NYCE

[Jonathan Lighter]

>Can you find any other evidence of Dutch or German influence outside of lexicon?

And how could you be sure?

JL

On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Michael Newman
<michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu> wrote:
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> Poster:       Michael Newman <michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Michael Newman
> Associate Professor of Linguistics
> Queens College/CUNY
> michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu
>
>
>
> On Feb 13, 2012, at 6:01 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
>
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>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at GMAIL.COM>
>> Subject:      Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> OTOH, the non-Dutch theory suffers from concluding that, although
>> Dutch and German were a dominant foreign language in NYC from the
>> beginnings of New Amsterdam through the 19th Century up to the General
>> Slocum disaster and WWI, they are thought to have no influence
>> whatsoever.
>> DanG
>> who wonders what accent the German-born John Jacob Astor spoke...
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:54 AM, Jonathan Lighter
>> <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
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>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>>> Subject:      Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> The "Dutch" theory and others suffer fatally from the double
>>> assumption that there was just one determining factor (a particular
>>> foreign language or earlier English dialect) and that a little
>>> reflection and "common sense" will identify it.
>>>
>>> JL
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Ronald Butters <ronbutters at aol.com> wrote:
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>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>> Poster:       Ronald Butters <ronbutters at AOL.COM>
>>>> Subject:      Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> This vowel is also heard in New Orleans, and among older Black speakers =
>>>> in the South. Not too bloody likely that the Dutch had much to do with =
>>>> it.
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 13, 2012, at 10:23 AM, James A. Landau wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> There is a stereotype that people from Brooklyn pronounce /@r/ as /oi/ =
>>>> or /ui/.
>>>>> ("toidy-toid and toid avenue").
>>>>> =20
>>>>> Could this be, contrary to your statement above, a holdover from Dutc
>>>>
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