[Ads-l] ~wool and ~chool

[Laurence Horn]

> On Jul 18, 2020, at 11:10 AM, Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> 
> The problem with English is that the spoken word does not agree with the spelling of it, and thus violates the alphabetic principle that letters stand for sounds. 

You say that (the “thus” part) as if it’s a bad thing. What does the alphabetic principle do about phonological variation? I’ve heard “CHOOL-dren” and I’ve (mostly) heard “CHIL-dren”. I’ve also heard something essentially in between—the vowel space is continuous, after all.  Should we spell the plural of “child” differently depending on who’s speaking? When you say “Here is *my* vocalizing…” below, I believe you.  It’s not, however, my vocalizing.

And what do we do if we’re writing the word in a context in which we’re not representing any particular speaker—spell it both ways, just in case?  

LH

>  Here is my vocalizing of ~chooldrin which according to its spelling should be ~children.  I think the reason for saying ~chool (as in "wool') is that it's a little easier than saying ~chil . https://www.speakpipe.com/voice-recorder/msg/1tdziltl77v660rv
> [http://www.speakpipe.com/static/img/speakpipe-logo.png]<https://www.speakpipe.com/voice-recorder/msg/1tdziltl77v660rv>
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> Tom Zurinskas,  Originally from SW Conn 20 yrs,  college NE Tenn 3,  work SE NJ  33,  resides SE Florida 18...  truespel.com
> 
> ________________________________
> From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of Geoffrey Nathan <geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU>
> Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 9:01 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Subject: Re: ~wool and ~chool
> 
> When I taught basic phonology (which I taught from roughly 1975 to 2017)
> I usually started with the following set of words:
> 
> sit
> Sid
> hint
> pinned
> pill
> 
> I then pointed out that each "i" sound was different:
> 
> sit: short
> Sid: long
> hint: nasalized, short
> pinned: nasalized, long
> pill: retracted - not as high, or as front
> 
> I then pointed out that these differences didn’t "count", because these
> Sounds were allophones of the same phoneme. The retraction is
> quite widespread in American English before the dark l in syllable-final
> position. I listened to the woman Tom was referencing, and the first
> instance is a fairly normal "i", the second one is quite retracted, but
> not near the modified "short-u" in "wool".
> 
> Not going to measure the formants, but that is my informal assessment.
> 
> Geoff
> 
> [PS Attempting to fool the software at UGA into not messing up
> the formatting]
> 
> Geoffrey S. Nathan
> WSU Information Privacy Officer (Retired)
> Emeritus Professor, Linguistics Program
> http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/
> geoffnathan at wayne.edu
> 
> From: Tom Zurinskas<mailto:truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 3:23 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU<mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Subject: Re: ~wool and ~chool
> 
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: ~wool and ~chool
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I'd say the lady speaking here is saying ~chooldrin.   https://www.youtube.=
> com/watch?v=3Dz_1Zv_ECy0g  around 20 seconds and 30 s inti video.  I heard =
> Lawrence O'Donnel say ~chooldrin on yesterday's show, and he's from Mass.  =
> I wool never ceased to be amazed.  ~~fer sher~~
> 
> Tom Zurinskas,  Originally from SW Conn 20 yrs,  college NE Tenn 3,  work S=
> E NJ  33,  resides SE Florida 18...  truespel.com
> 
> ________________________________
> From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of MULLIN=
> S, WILLIAM D (Bill) CIV USARMY CCDC AVMC (USA) <0000099bab68be9a-dmarc-requ=
> est at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 7:00 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Subject: Re: ~wool and ~chool
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> The word "children" is being pronounced ~choolddin for the past few years=
> (where ~chool
>> rhymes with "wool").
> 
> Not by me.
> Or by anyone I've ever spoken with.
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> 
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> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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> 
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> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> 
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