[Ads-l] Personal pronouns modified with relative clauses

[Laurence Horn]

> On Jun 5, 2023, at 8:55 PM, Charles C Doyle <cdoyle at UGA.EDU> wrote:
> 
> Or rather, "Our father WHICH art in heaven . . ." (in the KJV)!
> 
> --Charlie

Yeah, I guess I must have (like a good Jew) gone with the Douay-Rheims, whence the “who art”.  I see the Modern English version just finesses the whole bit:  “Our father in heaven”, employing what we used to call “whiz-deletion”.  

LH

> ________________________________
> From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Sent: Monday, June 5, 2023 8:32 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Subject: Re: Personal pronouns modified with relative clauses
> 
> [EXTERNAL SENDER - PROCEED CAUTIOUSLY]
> 
> 
> Then there's "Our father, who art in heaven,...", with an implicit or
> silent second person pronoun to which the "our father" is in apposition. Or
> alternatively with a noun phrase used vocatively, governing second person
> agreement. Either way, they don't make 'em like that anymore...
> 
> LH
> 
> On Mon, Jun 5, 2023 at 8:24 PM Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> Trump's use of "who" sounds perfectly normal to me, though formal and
>> perhaps antiquated.
>> 
>> I recall a grammar question from sixty years ago (God knows where) that
>> asked "Which is correct?"
>> 
>> 1. Confide in me, who is your friend.
>> 
>> 2. Confide in me, who am your friend.
>> 
>> The correct answer, of course, was 2.
>> 
>> JL
>> 
>> On Mon, Jun 5, 2023 at 7:31 PM Barretts Mail <mail.barretts at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Thank you for that example. I also thought of a couple of examples as I
>>> was writing my email. For some reason “me, who did nothing wrong” sounds
>>> ungrammatical to me, maybe because it’s restrictive. Not sure. BB
>>> 
>>>> On Jun 5, 2023, at 15:30, Chris Waigl <chris at LASCRIBE.NET> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I don't know. May he who is without sin throw the first stone.
>>>> 
>>>> Chris
>>>> (jokingly)
>>>> 
>>>> On Mon, Jun 5, 2023 at 2:09 PM Barretts Mail <mail.barretts at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> My recollection is that one of the reasons some people doubt that
>>> Japanese
>>>>> “pronouns” are actually pronouns is that they can take relative
>> clauses,
>>>>> and that in languages like English, they cannot. To invent an example
>> in
>>>>> both languages:
>>>>> 
>>>>> スーパにいた僕を見た。(suupa-ni ita boku-wo mita)
>>>>> * (somebody) saw me who was in the grocery store.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Today I saw an article in which former President Donald Trump violates
>>>>> this rule. Here is that article and another quote. Is this idiolect or
>>>>> dialect?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>> 
>> https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-asks-can-doj-charge-lawyers-meet-feds-rcna87770
>>>>> Dareh Gregorian
>>>>> 5 Jun 2023
>>>>> ###
>>>>> "How can DOJ possibly charge me, who did nothing wrong, when no other
>>>>> president's were charged," Trump wrote on Truth Social in an all-caps
>>> post.
>>>>> ###
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>> 
>> https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/26/politics/donald-trump-press-conference-analysis/index.html
>>>>> Chris Cillizza
>>>>> 26 Sep 2018
>>>>> ###
>>>>> “I’ve been accused … by four or five women, who got paid a lot of
>> money
>>> to
>>>>> make up stories about me who made a lot of money,” Trump said.
>>>>> ###
>>>>> 
>>>>> Benjamin Barrett (he/his/him)
>>>>> Formerly of Seattle, WA
>>>>> 
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Chris Waigl . chris.waigl at gmail.com . chris at lascribe.net
>>>> http://eggcorns.lascribe.net . http://chryss.eu
>>>> 
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>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>> 
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>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>> 
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>> 
> 
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